Cp_ Freight
This map has many flaws, but I really enjoy the uniqueness of its mid. No 2 teams has the same strategy for the middle of this point, so when going into scrims/matches one never knows what to expect from the opposing team.

I’ll start off with some of the interesting strategies before I get to my question. One strategy that I’ve seen a few times is just a level 1 or level 2 sentry being built on the train tracks as the game starts. The advantage of this is it’s able to watch any scouts who come through back-side water or who flank from any direction. Having your medic around the sentry is essential and allows the rest of the team to focus less on protecting the medic and more on being aggressive. It also helps against soldiers who attempt to jump on the combo as well as kritzkriegs. It could slow the kritzkrieg down for a second by forcing the team to focus on the sentry before they target the medic again.

I’ve also seen many euros use a heavy strategy. I’m not sure how useful this is, as he’s not very agile and on freight where both teams basically hide behind the big wall until they get uber. Yet, I’ve seen teams use the heavy as a distraction or a clean up kit, as they send the rest of their team (scouts, soldier and demoman) along the sides forcing the enemy team to focus on those players, then the heavy medic can come up the middle and finish the players off while assisting their teammates.

Another strategy if a team has 2 stellar snipers, would be double snipers. As I’ve stated before, before a team has uber or kritzkrieg, not much happens. So if 2 stellar snipers could get a pick or 2 before this happens or force the other team to play passively because of fear of peaking, it could cause success. To do this sacrifice 1 soldier and 1 scout.

Now enough with all the crazy classes as I do have a question.
One question I do have is, how does a team successfully counter uber against a kritzkrieg? In an evenly balanced game, I don’t see a reason why a kritzkrieg team would lose. Besides the sentry, I don’t see what the team with regular uber can do as a counter attack? The uber team would either have to fall back or quickly kill the opposing medic.
Also, who normally wins freight mid, the passive or aggressive team?
Also if you have a real good strategy and would like to post it, I’d be interested in seeing it.

for the kritz, on evenly matched teams the kritz should always win since u should always be going for the medic who will be still building

if the teams arent evenly matched, uber can still easily win (ex. loaded vs vg last night on freight)

I've never had much trouble against kritz's on mid. Usually, they try to push using it right down the middle, and when they go to make their move (we've figured out they have kritz by then), the heavy classes spam the medic while our medic dodges behind cover. Generally on freight's mid, you have to think about it as if you were holding an area. You have to get picks in order to tip the balance in your favor, then you push all-out.

I haven't played Freight but a handful of times so I'm curious about the strats here as well. It doesn't seem like the normal all-out fight for mid like other cp maps, more of a turtling sitution. Personally, I'm not a big fan of this map but unfortunately some like to play it so I have to know what the general strategies are. I have seen sniper used on more than one occasion so this seems like a common opening for this map....maybe it's just me.

It seems like the heavy strategy works the best on this map, purely because the mid fight is slow enough to allow it. While most maps have the teams engaging almost immediately (ie: Badlands, Granary mid), freight allows for more of a relaxed spamming while your team can get setup. This really lets you get whatever you want out there and figure it out as you go.

The heavy strategy works only if the opposing team does not run a sniper, which many teams do on freight. If you are a heavy up against the sniper, your scouts need to kill the sniper over the medic to allow your heavy classes to move forward and onto the point.

On freight using kritz is probably the easiest but most risky way to win a match. If your team builds to slowly or is in poor position when it is time to use your uber, you will be crushed by the pushback from the other team relatively easily. The second you get kritz, your demoman or soldiers have to be ready to use it or it will not work against a decent team.

The heavy strategy works only if the opposing team does not run a sniper, which many teams do on freight. If you are a heavy up against the sniper, your scouts need to kill the sniper over the medic to allow your heavy classes to move forward and onto the point.

On freight using kritz is probably the easiest but most risky way to win a match. If your team builds to slowly or is in poor position when it is time to use your uber, you will be crushed by the pushback from the other team relatively easily. The second you get kritz, your demoman or soldiers have to be ready to use it or it will not work against a decent team.

i would definitely agree with this and the medic needs to be actively telling the demo/soldiers like what percentage hes at so they can stop spamming and reload and get in a better position so that as soon as it hits 100 percent it can be used

The reason I see Kritz work against lots of teams on Freight is because many teams tend to play their combo right behind the left wall/box area close to the point. It is a convenient positioning to watch the left nook flank and put spam on the point but it really isn't the only smart option for the mid fight.

In response to the double sniper roll out- I've seen it done and found it quite easy to counter simply by realizing they are most likely playing one scout and one solly down. This creates ample opportunity for your teams scouts to push in hard and do work.

Now enough with all the crazy classes as I do have a question.
One question I do have is, how does a team successfully counter uber against a kritzkrieg? In an evenly balanced game, I don’t see a reason why a kritzkrieg team would lose. Besides the sentry, I don’t see what the team with regular uber can do as a counter attack? The uber team would either have to fall back or quickly kill the opposing medic.
Also, who normally wins freight mid, the passive or aggressive team?
Also if you have a real good strategy and would like to post it, I’d be interested in seeing it.

Simplest way is probably full charge body shot the medic with a sniper. I'd consider a headshot too hard to rely on but a charged body shot as the medic pushes up to the point should be cake. This means that your sniper has to stay alive so you probably want to guard his flanks.

If the opposing team has a sniper and kritz they probably won't be giving too much healing to their sniper as if he isn't taking damage slowing down the charge of kritz is a big deal. Your sniper on the other hand should have plenty of heals so he can survive an encounter with their sniper. You have uber so no matter how fast you charge you aren't getting it faster than their kritz so it's fine to slow your charge some.

The aggressive team normally wins mid, but it has to be smart aggression. Using coordinated attacks from multiple directions and distractions. With the way respawns are on freight I'd say probably 4 out of 5 times the team that securely takes mid wins the round.

I agree. But a guaranteed way would of course be better. That sniper body shot isn't something a team should rely on when using uber. And considering how hard or rarely I see teams recap mid, getting the mid down is really important. Can anyone think of a more consistent way of getting mid with uber, or is kritz the way to go for the most part?

Are you sure that a charged body shot isn't reliable vs a kritz medic? As long as your sniper doesn't die I see no reason he shouldn't be able to get that shot.

I guess maybe they could kill the sniper with the first charged kritz sticky before the medic has to round the corner, but if your combo is playing back towards your stairs and they use kritz that early you can probably be relatively safe from it.

And I'd say kritz is the way to go for the most part because what you want to do on mid is wipe them out quickly not win a battle of attrition so that you can chain cap the next point. Because the 2nd point is fairly defensible but the last point is almost impossible to push out of because of the huge respawn time disadvantage.

Maybe I'm just a terrible sniper, because I can't always guarantee that shot :(

Ya but surely you have someone on your team that you can rely on to make that shot? I mean you have to have a technically proficient team to be able to use some strats but once you reach that proficiency that's where strategy discussion becomes most interesting.

Once you have a sniper that can consistently land a charged body shot on a medic crossing the point you can build your strategy around that. The best counter to that I can think of right off is having their sniper stay safe until kritz is about to go and then full charge headshot your sniper who is necessarily stationary and exposed to get their medic with a charged body shot.

I'm not exactly sure how I would counter this yet. Since their sniper is refusing to challenge your sniper he will also not be going for picks so he can for instance watch the water until its time for him to go to work and shut down the common sniper counter which is scout flank through water.

There might be a another perhaps stronger counter in the first place to the kritz than the charged body shot but right now I can't think of one that should consistently work against equal teams.

Yeah, I think most teams have the consistent shooter. I really don't think there's a stronger counter. If the team doesn't have a sniper though, they can try sending their soldier on their balcony when the opposing team has kritz. Then that opposing team has two options, use their first krit sticky on that soldier or try and avoid him (if they do that the soldier can jump down or spam the medic from above and killing him) and get the other teams medic.

This of course wouldn't work every time, or nearly every time. More of an on-the-go type of thing. But then again, a lot of on-the-go things could be created.

Overall, I'd recommend kritz :P

Now enough with all the crazy classes

Not yet! :D

Our team found a spy through water to be very effective, especially when the other team had a good sniper. Our team would hang back and try not to cross mid and once the spy killed the sniper (easy) or medic (not as easy) we would rush in with kritz. Just be sure to cloak underwater. One time they sent both scouts under to flank and our spy called them out well ahead of time. (Graped!)

As for a standard lineup with kritz vs medigun, we could never consistently counter kritz unless we completely gave up mid, then rushed out of 2nd when we had our uber. (Barring a suicide soldier taking out the medic of course)

Ya we've actually ran into similar situations with an enemy spy going water finding and calling out our kritz combo trying to flank water. Basically because of cloak our combo didn't find out they knew until it was too late to turn back.

So we have I think 2 viable ways here to counter a sniper charge body shot onto the kritz medic so I guess we have to search for something else or resolve to use kritz.

In europe the setup 1 medic, 1 demo, 1 soldier, 1 heavy, 1 sniper, 1 scout seems normal. The sniper is really useful on the open mid, but also on second and first point there are good sniping spots available. Moreover, the map doesnt have much ways to flank, especially on the first and second point. So two scouts doesnt work that good like in other maps. Especially when teams push forward very slowly and heavily relies on the pressure and the kills from the sniper. The heavy on mid is most of the time a scout killer. He watches the left and protect the sniper and if called right, he can wait for a scout who was trying to flank through the watertunnel. So the heavy doesnt stand on the point, he is just waiting behind the walls.

To counter a kritz medic. Just add the pressure and kill the medic before he has uber. Otherwise just keep your distance. And stay alive and maybe retreat to second and let the normal uber do his work.