HIT ME!

Make things interesting. Play a regular season with:

follower
freight
gravelpit
gullywash
obscure
turbine
viaduct
yukon

... leave blands and gran for the playoffs.

I am tempted to leave out freight and gullywash from that list. What do you think of removing those two and putting in two other maps?

In my opinion, follower, freight, and gullywash are probably the "worst" three maps on that list, so if you're going to replace some, I agree that those would be good candidates for removal. What maps would you put in their place, though? I haven't played enough of the other new maps to find any that are better (though the only remotely popular ones that I've played are furnace, indulge, and waste).

replace them with:

obscure
obscure
obscure

In my opinion, follower, freight, and gullywash are probably the "worst" three maps on that list, so if you're going to replace some, I agree that those would be good candidates for removal. What maps would you put in their place, though? I haven't played enough of the other new maps to find any that are better (though the only remotely popular ones that I've played are furnace, indulge, and waste).

That's exactly what I am asking since I haven't tried some of the newer custom maps. I wish there was a solid new A/D...

Furnace seemed okay when I played it, but it was basically gpit with smaller doors. It certainly wouldn't be the worst a/d that's made its way into a league *cough*broma*cough*.

There's always pro_dustbowl as well. The long setup times are kind of annoying, but I've always enjoyed the map itself. Though I will admit to personal bias -- I know most people don't like playing it as much as I do.

i don't like dustbowl tbh, its too spammy compared to other maps, but that's just me

why remove freight? its solid map, the only problem i have with it is that once a team wins mid, they basically win the round

don't like follower as much though

why remove freight? its solid map, the only problem i have with it is that once a team wins mid, they basically win the round

The problem with freight imo is how the gameplay goes after mid (which is one of the more interesting mids). If a team loses their medic on mid (common) but otherwise wins by a large margin, they roll 4 and then the game comes to a halt. If a team barely wins mid, they cap then the game comes to a halt. Freight's 2nd point is not as hard to attack as waste's or well's, but it still has the sliding doors that make peeking and spamming to create an advantage incredibly risky + are too far from the point itself to pop uber into and make a push out of it. Last also has those wonderful tiny sliding doors that are fatal to peek.

Personally, I like freight more than its problems should allow me to like it, so I'd want to play it, but I recognize the issues that make it less fun for most people to play/spectate.

don't like follower as much though

I don't like follower either. I think the yard doesn't see enough action because of how long the sightline is into mid. It's too easy to spam/snipe a combo trying to hold their left yard. Plus, I think the 3->2 dropdown is stupid, since a scout can just wait there until he hears the enemy scouts coming, then drop down and start a backcap. Similarly, there are too many places to hide around point 3 to force the enemy to retreat and take care of a backcap while pushing 4. If the yard was more like granary's (no sightline to mid) and the dropdown from 3->2 didn't exist, I would like the map better.

Still though, it's pretty popular, and I can't think of many complaints aside from those, so I won't let my personal disagreements with it keep it out of a recommendation for league play.

Furnace seemed okay when I played it, but it was basically gpit with smaller doors. It certainly wouldn't be the worst a/d that's made its way into a league *cough*broma*cough*.

There's always pro_dustbowl as well. The long setup times are kind of annoying, but I've always enjoyed the map itself. Though I will admit to personal bias -- I know most people don't like playing it as much as I do.
Everything you complained about in Furnace is even more pronounced in Dustbowl. Furnace has some cramped hallways, but at least most of the areas around the control points themselves are nice and open. Dustbowl is cramped EVERYWHERE.

I wish there was a solid new A/D...
Last I heard, the guy who made Furnace had several modified versions of the map that he wanted competitive players to playtest. (In fact, he even posted on these forums (http://commforums.com/showpost.php?p=32750&postcount=7)!) Maybe hit up the pug channel and ask them to provide some feedback?
I am tempted to leave out freight and gullywash from that list. What do you think of removing those two and putting in two other maps?
As popular as Freight is, I wouldn't be heartbroken to see it go. All of the current versions of Freight suffer from balance issues around the last point. The only issue I can see is that Freight is probably the most popular custom map in competitive play right now, so people might complain. If you do include it, perhaps include it later in the season on the off-chance that a newer (better) version is released some time during the season? I asked Fishbus awhile back and he said he was going to make a new version "at some point," but that was back in September.

As for Gullywash, I'd say give it a chance. I've only played this a few times in scrim and during TWL's pre-season but I like it from what I've seen of it. ETF2L has this as part of their regular season, and it's a lot better than a lot of custom maps that are already out there. At a bare minimum, this needs to be a pre-season map.


Vilepickle put out a finished version of Indulge not too long ago, but I've never played on it so I can't comment. It might make a good pre-season map if it doesn't make it into the regular season.


One thing that baffled me in TWL's regular season map vote was the fact that cp_waste was one of the most highly-voted maps. There are two things cp_waste has going for it: it has a nice middle point, and evidently a lot of people are familiar with it. Based on this, I think that including koth_waste might be an interesting idea. The landscape is familiar, so it shouldn't take teams that long to learn it and it gives a good introduction to the koth format. It's also nice because it takes the best part of Waste while cutting out everything that held it back (mainly, stalemates at the second point). That being said, it's something you might want to try out in pug several times before giving it serious consideration for a spot in CEVO's rotation.


With regard to Obscure: it's still in beta, but even in its current form it's still one of the best maps out there. I'd definitely vote for Obscure over something like Follower or Freight.

I was looking around at other custom maps and i ran into one that this guy tarmo made and posted on these forums. its called cp_wildmire. it uses the swamp package that they made over in tf2maps.net and the one that the teamfortress people linked to way back when.

it seems pretty cool and i made a video where i travel around in it so that you guys don't have to download and load it up for yourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJsZITAQ9oE

The reason that I bring this map up and want it to be at least considered is because it is very creative and unique.

in retrospect after making the video, i noticed that the control points are more close together than any comp map i know of. that isn't a bad thing though, as long as the spawn times are shorter than any of the other comp maps.

i am 100% for maps that require us to rethink the way we use our 6v6 lineups and strategies.

because of the short distances, i think that this map would provide lots and lots of action to watch.



once again though, and as i comment several times on in the video, i have never played the map. i want to play it in a pug or something, though.

here's the link to the map: http://commforums.com/cp-wildmire-t2593.html?t=2593

i remember scrimming cp_cauldron, it was pretty fun... still needs a bit of work with 2nd and last, but other than that, it was pretty cool imo.

cp_freight_final_final, oh boy...

how about waste? it was a twl map, and its not TOO bad

wand, based on the Wildmire video you posted, it actually looks kind of similar to Gullywash in terms of the layout of the second and third points and there not really being much of a yard area between the two to speak of. I'm not sure if this kind of thing can really be considered a design flaw, though, because Badlands is very similar in that the only yard to speak of between mid and spire is an area that the spire itself overlooks. Then again, Badlands can sort of get away with this based on the fact that its battlements and control point afford the defenders a decent location to defend on. (Gullywash sort of has this, but it's hard for the defenders to be in a position where they have the height advantage AND can retreat safely.) Wildmire does look interesting though.
how about waste? it was a twl map, and its not TOO bad
I just played cp_waste last week, and it's really too slow around the second point. As noted above, cp_waste's best feature is its middle point, so koth_waste seems like a decent map choice since it takes the best part of the map while cutting out everything that made it slow and boring.

What about either Gorge or Doublecross? Gorge certainly has a number of aspects that lend it to competitive play, such as the wide open spaces and soldier/demo-only healthpack in the first area. I feel like Valve really wants it to be viable 6v6. Doublecross seems to eliminate a lot of the stalemating that other CTF maps suffer from and it has all that open vertical space... I think that would be interesting if a little riskier.

Also there's the A/D CTF maps from the tf2maps.net contest. I know that haarp or vector were brought up as viable, although I don't know if they were ever tested.

Out of the CP maps not yet in rotations, I'd say Indulge really needs a chance. ;)

cp_compound!

Oh wait...

Edit: Never mind =X, gorge isn't a custom map *facepalm*

wildmire could be a candidate, it really has good flowing gameplay in coming b3.

I like Euro maps such as turbine and dustbowl pro, but I am sad when nobody in the North American community knows how to play them.

Try out cp_gorge please, it seems like a more competitive version of dustbowl. If it was played we could send our comments to Valve to perhaps get some problems with it fixed, if there are any. So far I've only played it in pubs and I think a lack of co-ordination in this map is what kills it, so if it was played in the 6vs6 style it could be bought into new light.

I actually enjoy pro_dustbowl..

Gorge could work, was going to try to get some PuGs together here shortly.

Furnace seemed okay when I played it, but it was basically gpit with smaller doors. It certainly wouldn't be the worst a/d that's made its way into a league *cough*broma*cough*.

I wouldn't recommend Furnace right now, we're making some changes (like widening those small doors for competitive play), and will have an RC maybe in a month or so. B4 also has some pretty bad spawn and cap times compared to some test versions we have been... testing.

Would love to see Furnace played in a league, but I'd say wait for a better version.

I'm liking what some people are saying here, with Wildmire. I've seen pugs on it, some scrims, and I've been meaning to do a scrim on it, but it just looks amazingly fun in it. I've played some normal games of it and it is fun.

Throw in ctf_atrophy into the testing mix, it's a hellishly interesting thing that requires tons of speed and whatnot, while having staccato slow moments in it. It's a kind of map that probably emphasizes speed and map control over strategy, but it would throw a wrench in the works. It's pretty fun in a 6v6 environment as well.

More 5 CP, I completely forgot about Indulge! Man, I read up some and caught it. I really wish that map was more popular, I've played probably one or two pugs on it and I really wish I had played more! The final is hard to push but I think it's Vilepickle's best map.

Other than that, scout the field. Mainline could be a good traditional style 5 cp, it's got some nice points in it, but I haven't personally played it in a 6v6 environment. But best of all, try to throw in some new types! Nothing would make me feel better than seeing other than 5 cp and how the strategies work around them. Seeing KOTH in ESEA really made me feel better about the future of competitive TF2. 5 cp is fun and all, but you can really add diversity with other modes, having more well rounded emphasis on the teams and different styles for winning. Of course, they need to play out well to begin with.