I'm sure you've all seen the blog post about the new weapons. While I do love this idea, I think it presents a rather tricky challenge to the competitive community, since it'll give everyone more things to scream about being OP and requesting bans of. In addition, if the number of weapons gets too high...well, think if every soldier had 6 or 7 different Rocket Launchers, each with it's own special properties.

I really don't know what to think right now. I like the additions of more content, but all I have to do is think of the disaster that the sandman was and combine it with the non-intellect of most of the steam forum ideas...what do you guys think?

i don't think they wil lbe allowed, only because you can only find them through random drop

Gunboats are allowed. The drop rate seriously needs to be upped though, if we're to see lots of new items in the system. The only interesting one for competitive will be the soldier melee unlock, but I would doubt that it will replace the pickaxe, especially with the current damage ramp on that bad boy. I'm not sure that I understand the mechanics of the chocolate bar, but it would have to be pretty amazing to get the heavy in comp.

The Pain Train may be a good unlock for some maps. I read as follows:

X2 Cap rate

You get two shotted by Scouts
Sentries are Heavies are a bit more dangerous

Doesn't seem a bad tradeoff, it seems a good side-grade.

Now, the Chocolate Bar...I don't think it's useful, 50HP is not going to save you from anything, it's useless if you have a Medic (And if you have a Heavy in your team you are going to pocket him most of the time so...)

Yes, it makes pure Minigun Heavies better at attacking but only the first time because then you are left with no HP and no Sandvich to heal you. So, I don't find it useful at all, the Heavy already has a lot of HP, he doesn't need this.

It was a let down for me, I expected the GRU in chocolate form. That would have worked very well, better than using the melee slot but yeah.

The Hammer seems inferior to the Flamethrower unless the Engi update does something about it. Again, something the Pyro didn't need, he was already good if he got close to a Sentry.

It was a let down for me. More options to the two best comp classes and two useless items to those classes that are close to perfect balance.

The only interesting one for competitive will be the soldier melee unlock, but I would doubt that it will replace the pickaxe...

According to TF2Wiki the Pain Train (http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Pain_Train) is usable by both Soldiers and Demomen. I don't have one yet, so I can't confirm this personally.

According to TF2Wiki the Pain Train (http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Pain_Train) is usable by both Soldiers and Demomen. I don't have one yet, so I can't confirm this personally.

It can be but it has no sounds/animations for the demo so it might be a glitch.

It can be but it has no sounds/animations for the demo so it might be a glitch.

Oh ok. I hope the glitch is that they forgot to put in sounds and animations for it, rather than that they accidentally made it usable by two classes.

Unfortunately, considering past bugs, I'm aware of which of those two scenarios is more likely...

Now, the Chocolate Bar...I don't think it's useful, 50HP is not going to save you from anything, it's useless if you have a Medic (And if you have a Heavy in your team you are going to pocket him most of the time so...)

Yes, it makes pure Minigun Heavies better at attacking but only the first time because then you are left with no HP and no Sandvich to heal you. So, I don't find it useful at all, the Heavy already has a lot of HP, he doesn't need this.

It was a let down for me, I expected the GRU in chocolate form. That would have worked very well, better than using the melee slot but yeah.
This defiantly seems like a pub only item. For a defensive heavy, running back to a safe spot to get more health could let the enemy win whatever he was defending. An extra 50 HP at the start of an enemy push could turn the tides. Has anyone checked the recharge time and eat time for this weapon yet?

The Hammer seems inferior to the Flamethrower unless the Engi update does something about it. Again, something the Pyro didn't need, he was already good if he got close to a Sentry.

Can you say fire sentry?

Honestly, the only reason I would use the homewrecker would be to truly humiliate my foe by beating their head in with a sledgehammer.

Unless engi update.

This defiantly seems like a pub only item. For a defensive heavy, running back to a safe spot to get more health could let the enemy win whatever he was defending.

actually, that was the sandvich. I'd say competitively the bar is better, since it gives more health and instead of wasting precious time eating after you take damage, you eat BEFORE a push and it gives you extra health so you can flank and let the ubered soldiers jump in, which in this situation a shotgun would be next to useless. Imagine how good it will be if you could throw it and give your medic more HP. This is definitely a good item. It doesn't make the sandvich useless either, sandvich excels on defense to keep you buffed while your medic is doing something else or to throw it to the medic to give him HP, but it's not good for pushes, while the chocolate is averagely good at both offense and defense. Also the gameplay style would be different with it which is good since the heavy is the one class which needs more of that.

if it acts as a buff to your base health, it gets quite a bit more interesting. a 525 HP damage sponge seems really intimidating to me. If you can toss it out to act just like a sandvich...even better. I'd be interested to see if any euros run heavies like with a choc bar./\

I want the scout and sniper to get something.

iunno, seems like valve is deliberately making these things underpowered. If the scout gets anything, it'll probably either make him immobile or give him crazy mobility and 0.05 health

every source i've seen other then gypsylord in this thread has said that its an overheal and not a base increase to health and that wont increase your max overheal at all..

every source i've seen other then gypsylord in this thread has said that its an overheal and not a base increase to health and that wont increase your max overheal at all..

Yes, there's no overheal. That ruins it for me, if you are alone the Sandvich is a far better choice and if you are with a medic there's no reason to use this.

if it acts as a buff to your base health, it gets quite a bit more interesting. a 525 HP damage sponge seems really intimidating to me. If you can toss it out to act just like a sandvich...even better. I'd be interested to see if any euros run heavies like with a choc bar./\

Not being able to kill an over healed heavy with a fully charged headshot seems just a little silly :beer:

I'd like it better if you could nom a chocolate bar really quick (like the Bonk! but without the thirdperson effect) but it had a recharge time.

Oops, I was wrong about the candy...Probably should have had a medic healing me when I tested it. I assumed that since the health boost didn't glow like a normal overheal and was restocked by ammo cabinets that it acted like an increase to base health...my bad...

just curious, since i haven't seen it used at all yet - does eating the candy bar give the heavy enough health that a fully-charged headshot wont kill him? can anyone confirm?

just curious, since i haven't seen it used at all yet - does eating the candy bar give the heavy enough health that a fully-charged headshot wont kill him? can anyone confirm?

Fully charged headshot does 450 damage, so no...350 < 450.

this reminds me of a question that I've never really gotten an answer to. How many medics does it take to make a heavy completely invincible from any single non-lethal damage source like another heavy, lvl 3 sentry etc? I know it's not a competitive question but I've just been curious and wondered if anybody actually knew the answer without looking it up.

MATH TOIME!!

So, what we know:

Sentry Level 3 (Bullets): Average 128 Damage Per Second
Sentry Level 3 (Rockets): 100 Damage (for direct hit) every 3 seconds

Assuming a span of 9 seconds passes, the total damage incrued will be 1452

128 Damage over 9 secs = 1152
100 Damage every 3 secs over 9 sec span = 300 damage
=1452

So then it's

1452/9=161.33 damage PER SECOND coming from the sentry.

Medics heal at 24 HP/sec when the target has taken damage in the last 10 seconds. So..

161.33/24=6.722

So you'll need 7 Medics healing the Heavy (or any other class) to be essentially "invincible" against the Level 3 sentry. Yay math? I'm bored apparently.

don't more medics on a single target mean less heals per second though?

That's also assuming the sentry stays up the whole time. If he is over healed to start, the heavy has 450HP. Sentry DPS-heal rate=137 total DPS. 450/137=3.25 If a heavy is sitting in front of a sentry for over 3 seconds without killing it, he is either too far away or has terrible aim.

That's also assuming the sentry stays up the whole time. If he is over healed to start, the heavy has 450HP. Sentry DPS-heal rate=137 total DPS. 450/137=3.25 If a heavy is sitting in front of a sentry for over 3 seconds without killing it, he is either too far away or has terrible aim.

The heavy would not be firing in this case, this is purely for experimentation to see how many medics it takes to keep a heavy alive against a level three sentry or other non-instantaneously lethal source. You have to assume that the sentry is functioning and fully stocked or the experiment is worthless for the original question.

yay for thought experiments!!

Fully charged headshot does 450 damage, so no...350 < 450.

thanks! what a scary thought.

Just for the record, if the candy bar gave regular health, instead of over heal, an over healed heavy would have 525hp>450. Valve though that was unbalanced though.

I'm not sure if I like the way that the new weapons are being implemented, I would prefer achievements to be available instead of having to rely on the drop system. I would like to play with the new weapons however I will/can not spend enough time to get all of them. I don't care about whether I get a hat but it irks me that its completely random and I could never get any of the new weapons.

Also they seem to be limiting the effect that the weapons have on the game because its very rare that you see anyone with one of the weapons. However this could be a good thing as it could be like an unlock week/month where everyone has the same weapon.

In conclusion I think that they should increase the drop rate of the new weapons to ensure that more people can get them.

I personally don't like any of the new items for competitive. The equalizer still comes to mind and I absolutely hate it, even in lobbies, even though it's allowed there [Or was I lied to?] The new weapons/drops in particular seem useless to me but they do, to some extent, alter the game mechanics which I think could ruin it for a team.
Of course if I had it my way I'd obviously prevent all the new weapons with the exception of FaN (Which I rarely see used), Direct Hit, and Sword/Shield. The community made weapons should definitely banned imo.

I personally don't like any of the new items for competitive. The equalizer still comes to mind and I absolutely hate it, even in lobbies, even though it's allowed there [Or was I lied to?] The new weapons/drops in particular seem useless to me but they do, to some extent, alter the game mechanics which I think could ruin it for a team.
Of course if I had it my way I'd obviously prevent all the new weapons with the exception of FaN (Which I rarely see used), Direct Hit, and Sword/Shield. The community made weapons should definitely banned imo.

I disagree, the huntsman is a perfectly viable unlock and I believe that is is the epitome of a good unlock: it changes the way in which the sniper performs their role however it does not change the core elements. Also the I believe that the bonk should not be banned as it isn't like the sandman and can be put to good effect. I'm sure there are more but I can't be bothered to look.

I disagree, the huntsman is a perfectly viable unlock and I believe that is is the epitome of a good unlock: it changes the way in which the sniper performs their role however it does not change the core elements. Also the I believe that the bonk should not be banned as it isn't like the sandman and can be put to good effect. I'm sure there are more but I can't be bothered to look.

Haha the huntsman I dislike just because the way I've seen it been used, it's just spam near head, get headshot. If you want to show me a video of it taking skill go ahead because I've never seen it... and am really interested in finding one. Bonk I agree would be an exception, I forgot that it existed :/.

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/autoarrow

Yeah Kritzkrieg, ubersaw, and bluts should be banned

Yeah Kritzkrieg, ubersaw, and bluts should be banned

Seriously they are so lame! :/.

Seriously they are so lame! :/.

Yes, lets nerf the medic's flexibility. His ability to change up the gameplay and to remove different forms of strategey.


But in all srsness, I think you missed out on the sarcasm on the post you quoted. Just saying.

Haha the huntsman I dislike just because the way I've seen it been used, it's just spam near head, get headshot. If you want to show me a video of it taking skill go ahead because I've never seen it... and am really interested in finding one.
If we're talking comp here, then its entirely different. One, its harder to headshot with the movement of the players. They don't run in straight lines like they do in pubs. Also, the headshot spam you refer to is something you see in pubs when theres a bunch of people in a small space. Comp is 6v6 and generally, players aren't going to be clustered in one small space (not saying it doesn't happen, mind you). Also, A huntsman sniper can't stand really far away in relative safety. He has to get in mid-range at the most because the arrow is visible and that puts him at strong risk against soldiers. Moreover, unlike the instant shot of a sniper rifle, the huntsman's arrow is visible and to some extent, dodgeable from a distance. You can't bullettime a sniper rifle (though, as a medic, I wouldn't complain if you could).

Yes, lets nerf the medic's flexibility. His ability to change up the gameplay and to remove different forms of strategey.


But in all srsness, I think you missed out on the sarcasm on the post you quoted. Just saying.


If we're talking comp here, then its entirely different. One, its harder to headshot with the movement of the players. They don't run in straight lines like they do in pubs. Also, the headshot spam you refer to is something you see in pubs when theres a bunch of people in a small space. Comp is 6v6 and generally, players aren't going to be clustered in one small space (not saying it doesn't happen, mind you). Also, A huntsman sniper can't stand really far away in relative safety. He has to get in mid-range at the most because the arrow is visible and that puts him at strong risk against soldiers. Moreover, unlike the instant shot of a sniper rifle, the huntsman's arrow is visible and to some extent, dodgeable from a distance. You can't bullettime a sniper rifle (though, as a medic, I wouldn't complain if you could).

I think of the dh and huntsman as the same thing.

Chocolate bar does not allow you to buff beyond 450 for anybody who is wondering, so it's essentially a 50 heal instead of the sandwich's full heal.

But in all srsness, I think you missed out on the sarcasm on the post you quoted. Just saying.



Haha, I was being sarcastic :P.

It seems that all these new weapons are excessively underpowered, IMO.
The Pain Train makes the Soldier 2 shot-able, the Demoman easily killed by Scouts.
The Homewrecker has no place in competitive play.
And the Dalokah Bar does not increase your overheal to 500, so all these are kinda pointless.

But these other weapons like DH and Targelander Demo should be banned.

But these other weapons like DH and Targelander Demo should be banned.

rofl.

There is nothing in this game so good it should be banned. Banning something is a final option only resorted to when there is no other choice. Right now not a single item meets that criteria.

Haha the huntsman I dislike just because the way I've seen it been used, it's just spam near head, get headshot. If you want to show me a video of it taking skill go ahead because I've never seen it... and am really interested in finding one. Bonk I agree would be an exception, I forgot that it existed :/.

any of my videos on my youtube. Some of them are private but I'll get to releasing them eventually.

It seems that all these new weapons are excessively underpowered, IMO.
The Pain Train makes the Soldier 2 shot-able, the Demoman easily killed by Scouts.
The Homewrecker has no place in competitive play.
And the Dalokah Bar does not increase your overheal to 500, so all these are kinda pointless.

But these other weapons like DH and Targelander Demo should be banned.

So... you say that all of the new weapons are excessively underpowered and are pointless, but then say that DH and the Targe should be banned? Why? The DH and the Targe are both awful. There is a reason you rarely ever see either of these things being used. The DH is pretty much a straight downgrade from the RL because you get zero splash damage and that makes your divebombs that the current metagame revolves around almost useless.

The Targe is also terrible. Honestly there are like 3 or 4 Demomen in the entirety of NA TF2 that should EVER be allowed to use the Targe, because the only way you can use it is if you have disgustingly good pipes. There is zero reason for DH or Targe to be banned. The only thing they are good for is situational strategies in the first place. Banning them only further limits the strategic thought process and flexibility of the game. They are basically straight up downgrades when used in normal play.

For people that think the targe is "over powered" please think back to your last scrim. Maybe on...granary. When you are pushing last, what is the first thing you try to find out. I know for my team, it is "what side are the stickies on". For obvious reasons, you want to go the side without stickies, so you don't have to pop in early. If we know their demo is down, we just go right to their combo and make them spam us to uber. So if their demo is using the targe, then the demoman has to play totally different, and your team can now relax going through chokes, knowing there are no stickies.

When it comes to the targing, yes it might be annoying, and with the turn script it can be more of a surprise. However, it is just like a soldier/demo jumping your medic. It is up to the soldiers to protect the medic. One easy way to counter this is just take the hit for the medic and then have the soldiers spam him out. Or bounce him (even at a low/mid level all soldiers are suppose to know how to do this) and juggle him. When his charge is finished and you have juggled him just use your shotty. I think it will only be really useful for demos that have excellent pipe aim. If the demo is just charging and spamming m1 with the eyelander, it shouldn't that successful against a competent team.

I haven't seen it used against my team the way solid was able to use it, maybe that is why people think it should be banned, because of solid's performance. However, that is like saying we should nerf the scatter gun because carnage killed a soldier that was fully buffed and had a medic on him, and that shouldn't be possible. These guys are invite for a reason.

The DH is annoying as fuck when you are trying to jump the enemy medic, but (just like with the targe) you have to change your style of play. Jump the enemy less and remember that you have better spamming sense they have a DH.

attacking last on badlands -> demo respawns with targe and charge + pain train

you're holding upper lobby, demo goes lower lobby and charges on the point -> a lot of demos don't put 8 stickies on the point, because they watch lower left, so then your demo charges on the point right as your combo's about to push in -> enemy team panics and they rush onto the point trying to stop the 2x demo capping last, you get the rest

Scottish resistance -> put some on last of badlands, destroy enemy stickies, send a scout(or both) to sneakily cap the point

DH -> great for garage pushes in granary, its harder for the enemy soldiers to jump on their crate, also a viable counter to valley pushes in badlands


but like grieve said, all these weapons are down-grades, and are extremely situational

just some suggestions

The only unlock I dislike is the sandman, it's still annoying even if it is garbage. The rest are fine to me, I mean sure some can be annoying like the dh, and the equalizer, but it's not like they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.

The only unlock I dislike is the sandman, it's still annoying even if it is garbage. The rest are fine to me, I mean sure some can be annoying like the dh, and the equalizer, but it's not like they are OP by any stretch of the imagination.
The Sandman isn't overpowered, but Valve should really scrap the whole stun idea and rework the weapon to be useful.

sandman isn't really overpowered now, it's just annoying as hell, especially when both scouts spam stunballs into garage D:

sandman isn't really overpowered now, it's just annoying as hell, especially when both scouts spam stunballs into garage D:

still over powered, if both ur solly gets sandman whos gonna shoot the scout on the med?

Sandman isn't that hard to dodge. At mid-range, you're most likely to get hit, but the stun time is short. And in that time, the Scout has to take the time to switch weapons before taking fire on your Medic. By the time he gets into killing range the stun is worn out and you can waste him.

I still think a blanket allowance of all unlocks is pretty much in order at this point. I don't see a single unlock unbalancing to the game, or too game-changing. Everything has its pros and cons, and no unlock heavily favors the pros IMO.

still over powered, if both ur solly gets sandman whos gonna shoot the scout on the med?
You're kidding right? How often have you seen a scout use the sandman? If it was overpowered it'd be used more.

Only unlocks that should be disallowed are the random drop ones only, but only until next season to at least give all players the ability to obtain them to some degree. Sandman is annoying, but no more annoying then the flare. Just don't see it breaking the game anymore.