One of the new items added in tonight's update is a melee weapon, available to both soldier and demoman. Offensively, it behaves like a normal shovel or bottle, but it has the passive effect of giving the wearer +1 to cap speed (essentially, the game treats you as though you were a scout) while taking 10% more damage from bullets.

One way to look at the increase in damage taken is as a decrease in your vitality when facing bullet-based weapons. Your "effective" health against bullets is 182 as a soldier and 159 as a demoman. Realistically, your effective health will probably be higher than this, since you'll probably also be taking damage from projectiles as well. In both cases, the penalty isn't too steep. A soldier with the PT will fare as well against a scout defensively as a regular demoman might, and for the demoman, the penalty is less than he would suffer for carrying the eyelander.

The PT's obvious downside is making it much more likely that you will get two-shotted by scouts. Encounters that you would have survived with ~15 HP will leave you dead.

I think that this is probably an easier choice for the soldier than the demoman, since the soldier has to worry less about scouts. Also, being that the soldier is less "important" than the demo, he can afford to put his life in jeopardy where the demoman might not want to. Actually, one of the main downsides for the soldier is the loss of his equalizer, making it potentially more difficult for him to flee from encounters where he doesn't have the health to RJ away.

I'm thinking Badlands would be one specific map where this could really help out projectile classes, making solo spire caps much more likely (spire caps in 11 seconds instead of 16). Having one soldier equip the PT definite seems like a viable tactic on Badlands.

The opportunity cost of losing the Equalizer to equip the Pain Train is probably too much. We saw all throughout the ESEA LAN that even at the highest levels of play the Equalizer is capable of some amazing stuff. Besides, even when it isn't pulling amazing triple picks on mid, it is getting you out of combat and across the map faster, which is of course very useful.

Really, outside of a few esoteric strategies I don't see the Pain Train being often used. The increased damage taken (from what I have heard it isn't just vs. bullet weapons, it is versus all damage types. Of course that means rockets and demoman explosives are dealing 10% more as well. This isn't confirmed by myself, but it is what I have heard from others) is potentially a pretty big deal and I don't see much benefit to faster cap times that outweighs the opportunity cost of Equalizer and the acual cost of taking more damage.

While solo Soldier spire caps at 2x would pressure the enemy a bit more while taking it, it's not very often that you need the faster speed. I suppose that in the initial pressuring of spire before the enemy units start counter jumping you on it to contest it you would put some more cap time on it, but I still don't think there will be many times where you end up basically capping it out from under their nose while they are still trying to actively contest because of the increased cap speed.

Offhand, the time that I can think of the Pain Train being useful pretty much revolves predominantly around Badlands last. A Demoman with Pain Train and Chargin' Targe that basically just gets buffed and charges onto the point might be able to steal a cap, ditto for a 300 buffed Soldier with it rjing onto point from bottom main. Doing the latter, the buffed soldier, in conjunction with a Scottish Resistance right before he jumps to blow enemy stickies off of the point, is an interesting thought. Given that Soldiers can RJ onto the point faster than a Scout could run onto it and that they would have 2x+ the health of them while keeping the same cap speed it might allow him to tank a cap. Unfortunately though, that would be sorta hard to setup, given that you would have to have two players using loadouts that they wouldn't be using at any of the other points, and getting that to sync up isn't incredibly common.

Overall, I basically see the Pain Train being used extremely sparingly for a few gimmick attacks on a quick-capping last point. However, unless the Equalizer is nerfed, I don't see much use of the Pain Train in any sort of regular loadouts.

Everything I've seen shows the pain train only takes extra damage from bullets. If that isn't happening now, I assuming it will be corrected.

I do agree though, that the movement speed with the equalizer is far too important to give up except for last caps. Demos that tend to stick close to the team may choose to go with it though. The bottle is almost the same, and with the combo for protection and healing, the risk of scouts isn't so bad.

A sticky jump back cap with double cap speed could also be a major issue to contend with. Some teams like to build to yard when pushing for spire on badlands, and a demo should be able to easily run to wood bridge from window and sticky jump for mid.

A sticky jump back cap with double cap speed could also be a major issue to contend with. Some teams like to build to yard when pushing for spire on badlands, and a demo should be able to easily run to wood bridge from window and sticky jump for mid.

If a Demoman is trying to backcap, that is nothing but a massive advantage to whichever team that strat is being used against. Demoman are way too important as damage dealers to basically waste going around trying to backcap.

That depends. If your medic is either dead, or is no where near uber, your damage won't be that useful when they push with uber. Forcing the other team to either rush to cap spire before they are ready or pull back to defend mid could really help your team. Obviously its not something to do every round though.

How would it help? In the situation of "We basically can't defend no matter what" then a backcap isn't going to save anything given that you can easily be outcapped. Besides, unless your team was basically completely dead (in which case trying for ao solo backcap is silly anyways given you'll just get outcapped,) even if you don't have uber you can still D up spire. Badlands 4th is EASILY the point that is least effected by ubers in the game. Even if they have complete advantage on you while defending you can still defend it effectively if you know what you're doing.

If the situation is really that which you have zero chance of defending, all trying to backcap with your demo is going to do is make your Demoman die. It's much better to just let him fall back to last and be able to defend there instead of trying for a miracle backcap that has a miniscule chance of ever working

I dunno man, I can see it being used say, on Gpit A or B when you are coming back to the point after you have cleared it off. There wouldn't be much of a threat and you can still detonate stickies if you have it equipped. Basically just any situation where you are going to cap a point in relative safety there is hardly a downside to having it equipped.

I can totally see why this is a downgrade compared to the equalizer but the bottle doesn't have much going for it. So I imagine that demomen will be tempted by this, mainly because you can instantly nullify the effects by changing weapons. That is unless I'm misunderstanding the properties of this weapon.

...there is hardly a downside to having it equipped...

... because you can instantly nullify the effects by changing weapons. That is unless I'm misunderstanding the properties of this weapon.

Whether you have the weapon equipped or not, you'll still cap X2 and take 10% more bullet damage.

edit to say* equipped by means of changing to it

I think if you can pull it off a valley rush with your soldiers and demo having this thing can be really effective, maybe if you use kritz too. I'm not sure about the timing but I think you can get uber as soon as you capture the mid point. That's a steam roll, no wonder it's called the pain train.

Using it at mid? You have to be kidding, mid is all about doing damage, if you are taking 10% more damage it isn't going to help at all. It isn't going to help you get mid, because mid isn't about getting people on the point, it is about getting kills, and if your soldiers and demo are taking 10% more damage to scouts it will only hurt. What is the first class that demo gets attacked by at mid? A class with bullet damage. If I knew the other team were all using the PT i'd just have the scouts go after them, if you are down a demo before the soldiers even get to mid you are most likely going to lose (granted you are going against a team of the same skill level).

The only time I would see using it is if you wanted a soldier and a scout to backcap, instead of both scouts. However, a soldier getting behind everyone is more difficult then a scout getting behind. A lot lower soldiers/demos worry about getting behind the enemy and back capping, instead of getting med picks.

Like Grieve said, the demo should never try to backcap. They are such a defensive power, it is 2x easier knowing the demo is down when you are trying to push, even better if you know that he is behind you, let a scout go get him while the rest of your team rapes.

I honestly think that almost everybody is WAY WAY WAY overrating the ability to cap a point faster. Again, points are seldom capped with an active battle going on, in a gigantic majority of the time the only time a point is capped is when the battle is basically over. Furthermore, when it does happen it is done by Scouts, which is due in large part due to their speed and dodging ability, not just their 2x cap speed. It's not like the enemy somehow will ignore the point while you cap it. The point will be being spammed and contested, and as a Soldier you don't have enough mobility to consistently avoid the spam that will be raining in on the point. Faster cap speed on anything but a final point just _isn't that good._

People are also discounting the 10% more damage drawback way too quickly. Do we really want to take more damage, in ANY capacity, so we can cap a piont slightly faster? Put it this way: Nobody uses the Eyelander for the Demoman unless they are Targing. Why? Because -25 HP is way too big of a drawback for a melee weapon, even though the other effects of the Eyelander are way useful if you get to use them. So, a Demo wearing the Eyelander takes 150 damage to kill. Because of the 10% bullet increase, a Demo wearing the Pain Train takes 160 damage to kill. Granted this doesn't count rockets, but last I checked Scouts were sort of a big deal. Is 10 HP more of survivability really that much more? I'm shocked that people are disregarding the "10% more damage" even though nobody would argue that the Eyelander's -25 HP isn't that big of a deal.

It could be interesting combined with gunboats (when they get fixed), seeing as you don't really need the EQs speed. I mean you can really ZoO0om! with the boots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZSak_2gq0w

But I would agree it is situational and 10% more damage from bullets is no joke.

Jaeger said it best..
"How many times have you seen carnage and enigma stick around to finish the cap?"

Jaeger said it best..
"How many times have you seen carnage and enigma stick around to finish the cap?"

Interesting. Some teams choose to send the heavies ahead as they are slower and the scouts can catch up.

Jaeger said it best..
"How many times have you seen carnage and enigma stick around to finish the cap?"

And we all know that every scout should attempt to emulate carnage. In fact, Complexity generally has different strategies than the "norm" because of their amazing scout duo.

And we all know that every scout should attempt to emulate carnage. In fact, Complexity generally has different strategies than the "norm" because of their amazing scout duo.

I HATE YOU SO MUCH FISH

I HATE YOU SO MUCH FISH

Watch flanks and we won't have this discussion all of the time. <3

hmm.thanks for sharing here

Has this argument changed at all since the Equalizer's nerf?

Not really. The equalizer is still a far superior weapon because of it's speed boost, and in almost any situation it deals more damage. At 121 HP, the pain train deals the same damage as the equalizer now. There is almost never a time when you have more HP than that, are in melee range, and wouldn't be better off meat shotting them with your shotgun.

i mean its totally situational: Equalizer vs Pain Train

when you are 1 second to spawning and you know your team is nearly wiped on the last push on blands u can slip on the paintrain, jump your way to their last point if u can sneak in cap last when their team isnt aware. or if ur team just stopped a push @ last(blands) and you get a paintrain soldier up on spire to cap.... who ever jumps that spire wont get a meatshot but an airshot. but in any regular situations the equalizer is prefered

Just as a point of interest, how fast can a soldier make it to badlands last from his spawn near mid? It seems like it would take at least 30 seconds to get there and get healed back after jumps. Any advantage you might have known about when you spawned with have completely changed because everyone will have had time to respawn, and unless there were picks somewhere during your travel time, both medics should have, or be within 10 seconds of uber.