A team only has six slots, and when you want to run a sniper, something's got to go. Medic and demoman are obviously indispensable, so that leaves either soldier or scout to make way for the utility class. This is mostly map dependent. Vertical maps like Granary and Gravelpit practically require a roaming soldier, so the choice there is obvious, but on open maps like Yukon and Badlands, a second scout can be more useful than a roaming soldier would. However, I have seen teams go both ways on Badlands, so I'm a bit curious as to whether there's a "standard" lineup for Badlands when running a sniper, and whether this differs if the sniper isn't used from the start of the round. There are also other maps like Freight and Well where I'm not really clear as to what the standard is.

One limiting factor from a practical standpoint is that scout players usually tend to be better snipers than soldiers, so it would make sense to have one of your scouts go sniper. However, you're still left with the option of having one of your soldiers go scout to replace the scout who is sniping if you do this.

For those who run sniper often, how do you usually change your lineup to accommodate it and what are the benefits of using said lineup? Are there any situations where it works more or less effectively? Feel free to share anything related to this topic.

In my experience, you can run 1 solly 1 sniper 2 scout or 2 solly 1 sniper 1 scout on most maps where sniper is viable, you just have to play it out appropriately.

When I play with 1 solly, the combo plays a much more passive role. The solly essentially babysits the med and sniper until the 2 scouts or sniper create an opportunity to move up without having to fight against superior spam power. If the opportunity doesn't come up, you have to retreat before your combo has really done anything (sadly).

For 2 sollies, the 1 scout guards the demo and (hopefully) watches out for the enemy scout(s) to attempt a pick on the sniper, while the combo pushes aggressively. It's not as easy to pull back from this if things go wrong, but it doesn't rely completely on your scout/sniper to do work.

I think both of these styles are legit on freight, yukon, and follower for the mid fight at least. You want 2 sollies for freight 4+5 (if you're not just rolling through from mid) imo. Yukon and follower can really run whatever throughout, but again 2 sollies are nice for breaking point 4.

In theory, dropping a solly for a sniper would be fine on blands mid, but I don't think sniper is valuable enough there to be worth it in general (for the most part). For other points of blands, I've only really had experience dropping a scout to snipe, having sollies to jump is pretty important.

I haven't played waste enough to see a sniper be more effective on mid than the extra solly or scout, and pushing 4+5 you definitely want the 2 sollies; sniper can be used there (though it's not great imo), but drop a scout for it.

As you say, gran and gpit are best played traditionally, and I think well is also. There's no initial scout+demo fight, so you don't lose anything there, and mid is all about spam. The rest of the map is suited to soldier over scout, so if you keep running a sniper, it should be a scout slot (imo it's pretty questionable to use a sniper around 2/4, but it can work, so whatever).

As you mentioned, usually scouts are better snipers than soldiers. The sollies I play with can snipe sometimes, but usually we'll have a scout sniper and a solly cover scout if we're going to do 1 solly, like you suggested.

yeah, it always depends on the map, or if you think your solly can outplay the scout. but its never a clear choice. so choose wisley

IMO, this is a question teams should answer for themsealves for their own style, but in general, I feel it's all about what the switch is meant to accomplish and keeping a balance on your team between light and heavy classes. Switching to Pyro is to do alot of damage by suprise, so having a Soldier do the switch makes sense. Heavy is about having lots of health and outmuscling things at close range, again, a good Soldier switch. Snipers and Spies are all about making picks, good Scout switches. Engi often is about making a team uber early or buying time on last point defenses, so that's a Scout switch (Engi's just a Scout with broken legs anyway).

Boogz and I were having a discussion about this the other day. Personally, my team is more heavy-class-centric, so we're prone to swapping out scoots. Boogz argued that swapping out soldiers is better, because you can help get scout picks, which helps your scouts "do work." So basically, if your team is scout-carried, have your roaming soldier swap out for classes that will help your scouts. If your team is more about concentrated spam, have your scouts swap out for classes that can pick their med/demo.

tl;dr of this entire thread:

It depends on your team and the map.

It really depends on your team honestly. In most teams I have played for, I have been the person that has switched to sniper, even when a soldier can snipe with a decent amount of skill. One major factor (other than map and positioning) is how much of a skill deference between the scout and your soldier that would drop for sniper.

For example, you may have a great solly that is dom'ing everyone, but a scout that is having problems that day, but they around equal in skill level. It would be better to drop the class that isn't doing very well.

On the other side, most teams will not have a soldier that even closely matches the skill of the scout/sniper, so if a sniper is used well, then an advantage is usually made.

Lastly, It also depends on the sniper, I usually play very close to my team which would be close to the enemy team, so I am seen as a aggressive sniper. What I mean by this is I almost never will be taking shots across the map, since that play style forces me to have a high DPI, I miss more shots at a long distance than a short.

A team only has six slots, and when you want to run a sniper, something's got to go. Medic and demoman are obviously indispensable, so that leaves either soldier or scout to make way for the utility class. This is mostly map dependent. Vertical maps like Granary and Gravelpit practically require a roaming soldier, so the choice there is obvious, but on open maps like Yukon and Badlands, a second scout can be more useful than a roaming soldier would. However, I have seen teams go both ways on Badlands, so I'm a bit curious as to whether there's a "standard" lineup for Badlands when running a sniper, and whether this differs if the sniper isn't used from the start of the round. There are also other maps like Freight and Well where I'm not really clear as to what the standard is.

One limiting factor from a practical standpoint is that scout players usually tend to be better snipers than soldiers, so it would make sense to have one of your scouts go sniper. However, you're still left with the option of having one of your soldiers go scout to replace the scout who is sniping if you do this.

For those who run sniper often, how do you usually change your lineup to accommodate it and what are the benefits of using said lineup? Are there any situations where it works more or less effectively? Feel free to share anything related to this topic.

You see, I main soldier (roaming). I change to sniper often when I feel it's most necessary, or I feel as if I am having a bad day and will help more as a sniper. In cp_badlands, you see this often, and mainly because I find it more necessary at a lot of moments. In cp_granary, I only change when we're defending our second, or pushing their last. If you can sacrifice a good soldier for a good sniper, then by all means, do it.

i think that sigma has the best view on this so far.

Yea in general your best bet is to go with who is your strongest sniper.

But sometimes you may want a soldier/scout to swap out even if he isn't the best, if say your soldier/scout can snipe fairly well and soldiers/scouts just aren't all that useful in the situation compared to the player who can snipe better but is using a class that is more effective in the given situation.


In my experience on yukon, since I am generally the sniper but I also play scout, we have one of our soldiers swap out to scout at times. It seems to play fairly well, you just need a soldier who can scout well.

But lets just pick a situation. um cp_badlands.

your sollys are vary important on Blands but really a sniper would be much better for getting the "main" picks. so in that case, you'll want to swap your roamer (if he is up for it and can do it) to sniper and leaving your 2 scouts to clean up the people who are distracted by the sniper. seen it alot in the Jeah Pugs i play in.

Yea that definitely can work, but if your roamer isn't good at sniping, you could have him go scout and a scout that is good at sniping go sniper.

yeah def weird situation. only if roamers werent such meatheads and actually learn to play other classes. christ

In cp_granary, I only change when we're defending our second, or pushing their last.

I've never seen a sniper do anything useful defending gran 2, and I would think the loss of a solly would hurt a lot both for holding yard (which I assume you need to do to snipe) or holding the point. How do you play it?

When you're on granary, it helps to get a pick either defending or attacking last. At mid, sniping is almost impossible(unless you're carnage and you run huntsman :3), and attacking/defending second with a sniper is stupid as well, because of all the corners people can hide in.

On Gravelpit, my team drops a solly and a scout for a engi/sniper, and after the sentry for the engi is destroyed, we usually run dual scouts or dual snipers. Gpit is too much of a sniper/scout map due to its wide-open areas, so dropping a soldier is more important imho.

On Freight, we drop a soldier for a heavy, and a scout for a sniper.

On Yukon, we trade the roaming for a sniper, same reasons as gravelpit; its too open to sacrifice a scout. However, our soldiers aren't the best at sniping ;) so one of them goes scout and one of our scouts goes sniper.

On Badlands, we usually drop a scout for a sniper, when we're pushing/holding second or pushing/holding last

... and attacking/defending second with a sniper is stupid as well, because of all the corners people can hide in.

While for the most part true, when pushing from last you can quickly open the sliding door and get a pick on somebody on the point, which could help in attacking, or the sliding garage door while defending from a yard push. If you have a scout with you, you should be somewhat defended against a scout/soldier popping out at you; if you have a demoman, that's even better. However, you're completely correct in that snipers are useless while actually inside the second point building.

P.S: Don't you dare forget about ninja-snipers coming out of dropdown, or I'll have your head :biggrin:

On Gravelpit, my team drops a solly and a scout for a engi/sniper, and after the sentry for the engi is destroyed, we usually run dual scouts or dual snipers. Gpit is too much of a sniper/scout map due to its wide-open areas, so dropping a soldier is more important imho.

That's pretty interesting. I was always of the opinion that B was so height-orientated that it's necessary to have 2 soldiers to control the roof. However, I can see 1 less solly (especially if you were already dropping a solly for a heavy) working out well on a C defense, and an A defense would probably be more feasible with fewer soldiers. In fact, now that I think about it, cracking an A (if it's actually causing problems for once) or C defense would probably be easier with 0-1 soldiers, assuming the potential enemy gun isn't causing too many problems for your scouts.

Do you have a sourceTV of this strategy to share?

lol sorry no, my team's server's down, and i never ask for stv's unless we suspect someone hacks.

its just my opinion, sometimes we still run two soldiers, especially if you run the typical defend b like hell strat. i'm talking if you have some people at a and some at b