A few people have asked me recently, why I don't often pub servers as much as I use to. So I spelled out a series of reasons I am a bigger fan of the PuG/Scrim scene over Pubbing, but they asked me an interesting question..

What would make a Pub server attractive to me..

So thinking through all the options, I came up with something and want to get feedback on what everyone thinks from the more competitive crowd. Some servers are either at or close to this, if so please let me know so I can try these out or provide feedback.

I would like to see the following settings:

Lower total players, 16-20 max
No-Crits, No Damage Spread
Class limits (2-3 of each class)
Vary the class limits based on number of players
Alltalk on if <12 total players, otherwise off
tf_teamtalk enabled
Team Scramble if one side is getting owned (time for round win or ratio of kills)
Competitive maps
Map timelimit of 30-45 minutes


That being said, a couple servers are beginning to pop up with this basic idea behind it. What do you guys think? For those that don't Pub very often, what would this style of setup do for you?

Yea sounds about right for me. We want to set up a competitive pub at some point as well. Keep the ideas about this flowing.

I think that varying settings like alltalk or classlimits based on the number of players is something that isn't really technically feasible unless you wrote a plug-in for it. For everything else you mentioned (nocrit, 16 slots, competitive map rotation), there is TF2F's Pro Like Chro (208.100.17.252:27015) and Insane Like Train (208.100.17.253:27015). As much as it would be cool to see more servers like these, most times TF2F has trouble keeping their second server populated so I don't think that there's really a big need for it.

I am working with CWG on their "Protation" server (69.175.14.252:27015) which we are still tweaking a bit, Clan Zero has a "ESEA Rotation" (69.65.58.193:27015) that are similar rule sets. I am going to put some plugins together to enact the original post here in a bit.

Pro Like Chro and Pro Like Bro are two excellent servers that I love to play on. The problem is that because of small server size, Pro Like Chro is usually full, while Pro Like Bro is usually empty due to custom competitve maps in the rotation (like yukon and waste).
The one problem I have, though, is that two halfway good players can usually initiate a roll, since small skill differences can make huge changes in actual games. For example, whenever certain people (unnamed here) join the PLC server, it usually initiates a steamroll for the next couple rounds. I'm not sure if there's even a way to change this, because I've seen cases where a single autobalance caused a team that was steamrolling to get flattened.

Yeah, I have seen games like that a lot. However, if the
more experienced players keep talking and basically playing
mentor, it really keeps the players interested and is helping a lot to keep the players learning.

oh now that is something I haven't seen before. It sounds really cool though

Hawkeye, do you got coding skills? I was planning on spearheading a server setup for CommFT, although my experience with SourceMod and even C++ is nil atm.

Without a doubt, no-crits, no damage spread, tf_teamtalk, and variable class limits is a must. A big feature would be DM mode running until an 8 player count is reached. At that point, the game could shift to 4v4 KotH and normal game rules.

I got other ideas and we could hammer out a "design" doc of sorts here or over steam. I'm out of town at the moment, will be back tomorrow.

Yeah I coded a few plugins here and there, hit me up on steam, If it says I am playing TrackMania it is likely my 4 year old son on the PC and I have no hope of getting at it to respond.

Great man, I cross-referenced this discussion on gotfrag, and hopefully we can get some good ideas rolling. I will compile a design doc of sorts with desired features and ways they could be brought about, then post it here. Hopefully there are more people out there as well willing to contribute to this project. I will hit you up on Steam soon, and as always, any one else can feel free to add me on steam:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/extine
Drop me your news tips, or just say Heeeeyyyyy.

So here is an updated proposal. We'll be able to secure a server as soon as we are ready with plugins and setup.

Player Count 20 or 24.

Setup changes depending on player count. To promote the server staying full, with small player counts, Deathmatch mode is on and there is the capability to play KotH with bots. If single player they can !votemap instantly to change to the level they want, and can !addbots. With multiple players the vote %s differ. For example, with just 2 players 100% yes is needed, 4 players 75%, 6 players needs at least 50% before, and once regular mode kicks in then it switches to a different vote style.

Once 4v4 is reached, players can vote off DM style and AllTalk toggles off correspondingly.

Cvars:
No-Crits
No Damage Spread
tf_teamtalk enabled
tf_use_fixed_spread

Upon map change, there is 1 minute of wait for players to connect, and teams are scrambled. No Team Stacking! Maybe.... If players switch after that to be with friends, shouldn't be too big of a deal. We'll just keep people in line by mocking team stackers. Buddy system would be great due to frequent map changes (discussed below)

Map Voting would preferably be done in an Instant-Run Off style. So a list of maps is propossed or nominated. After the first round of voting, a 2nd round kicks in between the top 2 vote getters. The reasoning behind this is that if 30% of the server votes for Dustbowl (prolly won't be in rotation, but an example!) it doesn't win based on it simply being the highest vote count. Instead there would be a 2nd vote between Dustbowl and the 2nd vote getter, Yukon for example. This then provides the opportunity for players to say, I would like to play anything but Dustbowl, and vote for the alternative map. This will hopefully work to promote a bit more variety and ensure that 30% of the server population doesn't control the next choice of map. There would also obviously be controls so maps cant be played back to back.

On top of the map voting, I think it's also crucial to have a fairly quick map rotation. This will help players focus on winning in a pub, and working decently as a team, instead of just lingering on a map for 45 minutes. I'd like to see the setup something along these lines:
CTF: First to 3, 20/30 min limit. (Also, no kritz bonus!)
5-CP: Round timer does not increase w/point caps, therefore 10 min timer on each round. At round timer over, team that controls Mid or greater wins. First to 3. On quick roll, option to re-scramble and re-start score count/map-timer.
A/D: Stopwatch style. 1 round each A + D. Could put up a 2nd set up to vote, as sometimes these maps are long, Gpit, and sometimes short, Gorge.

First to 3 rounds on a 5-CP map sounds short, but with larger numbers rounds tend to stagnate. The 10 min round timer ensures teams are focusing on the initial mid-fight, and try to counter out of 2nd as timer ticks down. Overtime if mid is being capped? Maximum time per map would be close to 45 minutes but thats unlikely. If there are 3 quick rolls, the time would still be in the range of 15 minutes. We could provide the option to scramble and restart timer, but even then 15 minutes seems like a fair amount of time on a map.

Class limits (yay for decent copy paste results! This is just rough draft):
Class 4v4 KotH 6v6 8v8 10v10
Scout 1 2 3 4
Soldier 1 2 3 4
Demo 1 1 2 3
Heavy 1 1 2 2
Medic 1 1 2 (1uber1kritz)? 2
Engie 1 2 2 2
Pyro 1 2 2 2
Sniper 1 2 (GPit dbl snipe!) 2 2
Spy 1 1 1 2


Map List:
KotH_Viaduct
KotH_Sawmill
KotH_Waste
other KotH_customs...
CTF_Turbine
CTF_Atrophy (carts roll closer in between caps)
PL_badwater
PL_Goldrush (this is a pub server)
CP_Badlands
CP_Yukon
CP_Freight
CP_Granary
CP_Follower
CP_Waste?
CP_gravelpit
CP_gorge
and other upcoming custom CP maps...

We will have the Decal plugin so we can promote CommFT to pubbers and represent for Apoplexy Industries, cuz they're hookin us up with a server, and perhaps more as this develops. Would eventually like to add the potential to link into #tf2.pug, or some sort of #PUG gathering system.

What would you like to see? Share your thoughts!

I want this out of the door in two weeks so figure this out ASAP guys! If you want to get involved and be an admin on the server, you can post that here as well.

I have a development server up, working on the class limit changing with player as soon as I get back from sledding with the kids.

I just wanted to say that this sounds like a great idea. I'll play in this server for sure and recommend it to friends. I hate jumping on Mumble and talking to random people because I don't know their 'style', and it feels kinda awkward. I haven't really pugged much because of these reasons, and pub all the time. So, this server would suit me and friends well. :smile:

Z

Cool. Thanks for the feedback Zca. Thats the type of server we're hoping this will be.

It'll be an open server so obviously we'll get some pub strangers in there, but hopefully it'll provide a setting that is appealing to both competitive players looking for some quick action and pub players looking for a more structered environment.

On the development server, I added the mumble plugin, it will connect you to our mumble server, I will modify it in a bit for team specific channels. Some are just the opposite and comfortable in the mumbles then in game so we could account for both.

Sounds interesting. I hope it works.

sounds like a great idea, but I'm kinda worried about unstable server numbers. On Pro Like Chro (one of the more consistent servers of semi-comp format out there), you can get as many as 6 people leaving and then another 6 joining within 4 minutes, which would really mess with the DM mode and potentially leave people frustrated. Maybe make it so that it reverts back to DM mode after the round ends if there's less that a certain # of people?

Ya certainly ChipBuster. Once the player count drops, we should return it to DM. I'm hoping features like that, and the possibility to play with bots if your the only one on the server will help keep the population stable.

If there was some other incentive to be the 1st person in an empty server, that'd be nifty... dunno what could work though.

Well, there already is. If you're the first person in an empty server, you have free choice of class.

Well, there already is. If you're the first person in an empty server, you have free choice of class.

OMG, I'm gonna join a bunch of empty servers one after the other! :tongue:

:wink: I didn't mean that that was all the advantage there needed to be. I was just saying there was also that.

The biggest risk I see with this at the moment, is the on-the-fly change from DM to CP/KOTH gameplay. That change may be the most damaging to player counts (like switching from CP to PL for example) they each have their own following and I am somewhat skeptical if it will work, but that is why the development server is up is to find out and tweak things a bit.

Can you make the change into an automatic vote? Such as, when enough players get in the server, the plugin automatically starts a vote asking everyone in the server whether or not to switch game modes?

Thats kinda what I was thinking Grimm.

Hawkleye: Herm... ya I get what your saying... maybe the transition from DM to CP or KotH should be made during map changes depending on population. I want to use the DM mechanic to supplement our server when the pop-count is low as its primarily a pub server used to promote competitive style of play...

Alright, just finished a stupid little plugin to track player count and allows us to execute .cfgs based on the player count. (Player count on teams, spectators are not included in the count)

So as players come and go, the class limits will change automatically. What I need to test is how the class limit plugin behaves if the limit drops below previously allowed limits.

Also, I modified the TF2DM plugin from MikeJS to allow a simple CVAR to enable/disable it as opposed to loading/unloading. What the general idea I am going off of is this.

If the player count is less then a total of 8 (4v3 at most) TF2DM is active, BUT it will be on the following maps when in deathmatch mode.

PC = Playercount
dm_fortress (PC: <3)
dm_biosphere_v3 (PC: <4)
dm_store (PC: <8)
dm_barn (PC: <8)

Also, based on the player count at the map cycles, the next map will be dynamic, its a fairly elaborate config, but here it is

<8 = Deathmatch
between 8-11 = KOTH
12+ - CP/Stopwatch Maps
16+ - Larger maps

So the game mode will really only change when enough players are in and ready to go..

Players can force a map vote to ANY map at any time if they wish..

What happens if someone cancels connecting in between maps?

Hopefully at 7 outta 8 for koth, or 11 outta 12 for CP, thats enough of a population to quickly fill the slot that was just dropped.

My community has tried catering to our competitive players by offering a 16 slot server with comp configs (no crits, dmg spread, etc etc).

The main problem from what I see (besides trying to get a new server popular) is this:

1. Class Limits - Anything that significantly reduces class limits to 3 or under really can cause a varying result. These being that the game play suffers because people are not playing the right classes (no medic, no demo, etc) and you end up with a rollfest. The other being that your normal, average public player is not keen to a smaller game pace, which means that they also are not sure how to play the key classes in a smaller environment. The end result is that you have very uneven (and ultimately non-fun) game play.

2. Attitudes - I see this on all comp-pub servers out there, and that's having players with very little patience for those without complete understanding of the server and the environment. Lets face it, game play changes with smaller teams, no crits and requires less roaming and more teamwork. Your average pub crawler doesn't know about the finer things of TF2. This is the main reason why I see these servers fail. People troll the noobs out and eventually the server dies out.

My community has been down the road of trying to offer our competitive group (about 30-40 people) somewhere to play that offers a bit more variety and depth over your standard pub. What results is a lack of commitment from the regular pubbers or simply just being intimidated by the names on the server. The skill level is high and the game play is different, this is what offsets your average joe from joining.

All of this said, Pro Like Chro seems to be doing well. It is empty a lot but it's also full a lot too. Game play on the server is usually fun, but I've counted as many times where it's really frustrating when you don't have the right people on the right classes. I'd be really interested to see if the ideas here work...

Okay, the development server is pretty there as far as basics and open for testing. Some things..

It defaults to dm_biosphere_v3, this is because the map handles 1-4 players fairly well and plays fastpaced. A tf2DM plugin is active the allows yout o heal yourself without the use of a supply cabinet, I will add more to this plugin as time goes on, it's mainly to keep the DM maps working.

Deathmatch Maps
Will appear if fewer then 7 players on the server at map change
dm_fortress (Must be voted on to show up but it is there)
dm_biosphere_v3
dm_barn
dm_store

King of the Hill
8-10 players on the server

koth_viaduct
koth_nucleus
koth_sawmill
koth_harvest_final

Checkpoint
12 or greater players

cp_badlands
cp_pro_dustbowl
cp_fastlane
cp_follower
cp_freight
cp_gorge
cp_granary
cp_gravelpit
cp_indulge
cp_well
cp_yukon_final
ctf_atrophy
ctf_turbine


Maps can be voted on to go anywhere at any time.

Plugins used


Simple Team Balancer by Antithasys
Simple Team Manager by Antithasys
Dynamic Map Rotation by Floor Master
TF2 Deathmatch by MikeJS and Hawkeye (Not public at the moment waiting for Mike to give an okay if he wants it released, a slightly different version is public however)
MumbleMan by Hawkeye
Execute Configs by DJ Tsunami
D-FENS by Voogru
Rcon Locker by DeviceNull
DoS Attack Fixer by SourceOp.com


I am considering an Kigen Anti-Cheat, but not worried about it for this part of testing.. Come and check it out

connect 209.216.137.198:27016

I was playing on it today, the DM maps aren't that great, I would suggest contacting Lange and getting his stuff from SOAP DM. Basically it'd be best if until there's more than 8 people the server played the SOAP DM did.

Also suggestions on class restrictions.
During DM.
1 of any class.
No medic, engineer or spy (I don't include sniper in this because some snipers are formidable in DM while those three classes don't mesh well with DM.)
During KOTH
1 of any class
12+ players
2 of any class except medic or demo, limit those to 1.
Even at 8v8 more than 1 demo or medic is annoying.