The heavy seems to be a some what popular class in the European Tf2 scene, while I don't think we necessarily should mimic them, I think we could use the Heavy a bit more in competitive play. If for nothing else than for diversity's sake.

So what are some unorthodox strats that utilize the heavy? These can be tested and untested, all ideas are welcome.

Try to be specific so everyone can get a better understanding of the ideas.

last point for probably everymap

on the last point and when the map has a setup time like cp_well or gravelpit, this is because he is slow, obviously, while a soldier is very similar but fast. A soldier can be switched at those points for a heavy. Really the only thing holding him back is how slow he is, if he was a bit faster even soldier speed he would be much more effective in comp play.

I suppose I should have been more clear in my first post. What I want to discuss is using the heavy in situations that we would normally run the standard loadout. I know the heavy is generally inferior to the soldier, but I bet we can figure out some other niche times/places to use him.

I've seen a heavy (in place of soldier) used rather effectively on granary point 2 for both defense and offense. The area is relatively small so the minigun does good damage and it's easy to retreat even with the heavy's slow speed. By the same logic, a heavy is also decent at point 2 of follower.

THOUGH BACKCAPPING WITH A HEAVY DOESN'T WORK UNLESS THE OTHER TEAM IS TERRIBLE, AM I RIGHT? :frown:


Other than that, as people have already mentioned, attacking or defending a last point is a pretty good place for a heavy. If your uber lasts longer and your heavy is on the point (either side), you're pretty much going to win. Heavies are pretty good defending gpit (especially C), and on well to either stand on mid or rush them at their door.

Pushing Granary's final point, I saw Jaeger try to push under badlands' rollout to surprise them with a 450 hp monster, but it didn't work in that situation. Unfortunately, Heavy's just BORING to play as/against.

freight, because the mid battle at freight is so slow(as in no one really dies within the time it take for the heavy to get there), my team subs a soldier for a heavy.

does anyone else do this?

freight, because the mid battle at freight is so slow(as in no one really dies within the time it take for the heavy to get there), my team subs a soldier for a heavy.

does anyone else do this?

My team has thought about this, but our main concern is the heavy would become sniper fodder on such an open map, plus many teams run a sniper at mid regardless.

Given that the team has a decent or better sniper.

the forward spawn on freight is very close to the point, so he is viable when on offense against second, but on defense it would be hard to push out.

Unfortunately for the heavy, it seems like most maps conspire to keep him slow or ineffective. Most of the time, he's hindered by his low running speed. On the few occasions where there's something in the map that allows him to get to the point without too much delay, the terrain just doesn't suit him. For example, it's possible to run a heavy on Well at mid, but this is also a very open area. Snipers are popular on Well mid, and even if he manages to avoid being sniped, the map's architecture is such that he can be focus-fired to death fairly easily. However, you could make an argument for running heavy over one of the scouts at Well mid; Well is a map where heavy classes tend to dominate the center point. At the very least, he could prove as a distraction for the enemy soldiers so that your team's soldiers can get free shots on them until the heavy goes down.

Another place where heavy seems viable yet ineffective is when attacking Granary's last point. Sure, you get that sweet forward spawn so that he doesn't have to cover too much ground to get to the point, but the trek from the warehouse to the final point is a hazardous one. Even if he doesn't have to worry about getting sniped, he can still get focus-fired to death by the defending team's heavy classes before he's close enough to deal effective damage.


I'm personally a fan of heavy on Freight's mid point. Sure, it's a place where it's popular to run sniper, but the point's architecture is such that the middle point is usually a stalemate until one team gets a kritz/uber or just gets enough picks that they can effectively hold the center point. The mid fight probably won't be over before the heavy gets there, so he doesn't suffer from speed issues like he would on maps like Granary. The water-based flanking routes on Freight also make heavy flanks actually somewhat viable.

Another strategy that I've never seen but seems interesting is using a heavy in a similar situation when attacking the last point of Gullywash. He can use the water route to flank, and once he surfaces, the quarters are very, very close, making the fighting conditions ideal for the heavy. The only possible issue for the heavy here could be if the demoman has placed stickies such that the heavy can't pop them before surfacing, but if the heavy is able to catch the opposing team unawares, he could be a round-ender. The only problem here is that the attackers' spawn when attacking the final point isn't very favorable, so a heavy in this situation is something you'd probably want to use to break stalemates.
The heavy seems to be a some what popular class in the European Tf2 scene
I feel that this needs clarification: the heavy's usage in Europe is more about the demoman and less about the heavy. As you're probably aware, North Amercian TF2 is more soldier-based; the pocket will usually be a solder, and the soldier/medic combo will usually be the core of the team. However, Europe is more demoman-based; the pocket will usually be a demoman, and the demoman/medic combo will usually be the core of the team. The demoman/medic combo offers considerably more firepower than the soldier/medic combo. There's just one problem with running a demoman pocket: the demoman is pretty bad at killing scouts. In fact, both the medic and the demoman tend to be pretty vulnerable to scouts, and putting the two of them together seems like a recipe for disaster. That's where the heavy comes in: the heavy's job is to eliminate any scouts that threaten the combo, so the demoman can focus on engaging the enemy's heavy classes.

The heavy as a scout-killer to make the demoman/medic combo more viable applies mainly to teams that run heavy as a main on push maps, rather than something that is used situationally.

cool paragraphs. So I assume Europeans run sniper a lot more often as well?

well euro's like to rebel against the NA because we stuff cheeseburgers in our mouth.

yeah Fish but it didnt work at all when jaeger tried that sneak attack. got him mashed on and the medic died too, animeman

well euro's like to rebel against the NA because we stuff cheeseburgers in our mouth.

To be honest, the United States and Canada are colonies, and the United States often goes against the norm more than European nations. Nevertheless, I really don't want this turning into a debate about that.

cool paragraphs. So I assume Europeans run sniper a lot more often as well?

I'm not quite sure, but I think that it's possible, because the sniper excels at long range combat, which is the Heavy (and partially Demoman's) weakness.

well said Grimm, avoid THE REAL war. RoFL

i avoided gotfrag because about 1% of posts relate to tf2...

i avoided gotfrag because about 1% of posts relate to tf2...

QFT

gotfrag forum sucks my left nut.

i avoided gotfrag because about 1% of posts relate to tf2...

I told you about these forums, you cutie.

<3 you riot, may you be swarmed by women...


and me

Heavy can be good on Badlands mid. I think a team can play passive until the heavy reaches mid, and then aggressive once he's there. The opponents will be focusing on the enemies attacking them, and if any scouts flank, a rev'd heavy is efficient at taking them out. Even if the other team does live through the aggression, it's really hard to take down a heavy with a medic when you're hurt/not reloaded.

Heavy seems to work well on Follower also, but when I see a single scout immeadiately I am looking for a sniper/spy/heavy so the demo can change a bit to ensure he is ready if a heavy does show up. In a stand-off on Granary in the courtyard, if you have time a swap for a heavy can do well, but you need to have them locked up for a bit with a man down to pull it off.

well watching some older and newer euro frag videos/demos, you see that sometimes a team runs a heavy at mid, just like kermit said, and it turns out pretty well

i think its an overlooked class, and running it is more viable than people are willing to think, we're too stuck on our "two soldiers two scouts 1 med 1 demo" strategy.

my pugging experiences on obscure lead me to believe that a heavy is useful when pushing or defending last.

(and on a related note, how about pyro pocket on mid opening to deflect all the projectiles that come at medic?)

The Pyro is really useful for maps with enclosed areas, badlands last/first works well, granary first/last is to open and to risky. Using a pyro on two in my opinion could work but again to risky since you'd be at a disadvantage one/three.

Granary mid however I have seen some pretty good luck with a pyro, but a soldier/demo ont he crates just to much to overcome if you have a pyro as opposed to a solly. you could terrorize the scouts/medic but if the opposing scouts are doing there job keeping the combos informed, the pyro should be dispatched relatively quickly.

no one's going to run heavy anymore, not with the direct hit

no one's going to run heavy anymore, not with the direct hit

QFT, that DF can do 300+ damage in a single shot now..

At first I thought that was going to be the case but they buffed the minigun a lot and now the situation with two DH soldiers is similar to the 2 RL soldiers before. A bit worse but not much.

The reason is that now they do 25% more damage but the minigun buff allows you to kill them a rocket sooner than before.

Seen him being played less in pubs as well, the class needs an overhaul. Both the DH and the Equalizer can one-shot a heavy with crits and sometimes minicrits, even when he is overhealed. Add that to useless unlocks which are even nerfed farther because of this and the class is boring to play.

I still believe that the best thing Valve could do for the heavy is to swap the effects of the Equalizer with the K.G.B. the heavy is in need of escaping with low health far more than the soldier.

Also, as for using the heavy he's a very situational class. His slow moving speed plus large size makes him a very easy target but I've seen it be used well on defense. If Valve would do something like remove spin down time I can see the heavy becoming a lot easier to utilize.

wait, the minigun got buffed? How?

wait, the minigun got buffed? How?

Quite a lot. It fires more pellets and, more importantly, the cone is much tigher now. What used to be the "good" radio of attack is now the "total rape" radio of attack. Test it, it's really cool but not broken at all. If you don't notice it check the sound it makes.

Basically when it comes to gameplay the differences are:

1) You can kill Demomen before they can shoot a third grenade
2) Two soldiers with RJ are perfectly manageable now if you are skilled. You kill one when he fires his first rocket and you can kill the second when he fires his second rocket.
3) Now you are a threat to light classes at mid distance. It's now worth it laying supression fire because they will have to retreat.

On the other hand the Equalizer random criticals are really annoying because they kill everything, overheal or not.

PD: Removing spin-down time would break the class.

Quite a lot. It fires more pellets and, more importantly, the cone is much tigher now. What used to be the "good" radio of attack is now the "total rape" radio of attack. Test it, it's really cool but not broken at all. If you don't notice it check the sound it makes.

Basically when it comes to gameplay the differences are:

1) You can kill Demomen before they can shoot a third grenade
2) Two soldiers with RJ are perfectly manageable now if you are skilled. You kill one when he fires his first rocket and you can kill the second when he fires his second rocket.
3) Now you are a threat to light classes at mid distance. It's now worth it laying supression fire because they will have to retreat.

On the other hand the Equalizer random criticals are really annoying because they kill everything, overheal or not.

PD: Removing spin-down time would break the class.
How would removing spin-down time break the class? It'll let him get out of dangerous situations faster, he still has to spin up his gun but now he'll be able to stop and run much faster.

I feel that this needs clarification: the heavy's usage in Europe is more about the demoman and less about the heavy. As you're probably aware, North Amercian TF2 is more soldier-based; the pocket will usually be a solder, and the soldier/medic combo will usually be the core of the team. However, Europe is more demoman-based; the pocket will usually be a demoman, and the demoman/medic combo will usually be the core of the team. The demoman/medic combo offers considerably more firepower than the soldier/medic combo.
Hmm... well, from my low-levelish experience playing medic, this isn't quite true, as I've seen a lot of teams with pocket soldiers around their medics. Then again, it depends on how skilled the demo and the soldiers are, as most medics tend to heal the guy that has better aim/game sense. From what I've gathered, the demo in most cases plays a supporting damage dealing class when the soldiers are attacking, or the other way around if you're using a kritzkrieg.

wow, i never really noticed the heavy upgrade

i don't know why you guys are complaining about equalizer random crits though, but its still kind of broken, for some reason its way too easy to get kills with that thing

wow, i never really noticed the heavy upgrade

i don't know why you guys are complaining about equalizer random crits though, but its still kind of broken, for some reason its way too easy to get kills with that thing
How to fix the equalizer: no crits, 25% slower swing speed.

How would removing spin-down time break the class? It'll let him get out of dangerous situations faster, he still has to spin up his gun but now he'll be able to stop and run much faster.

Ah sorry I understood "spin up" instead of "spin down". The nomenclature is confusing, sorry.

Nah, it won't break the class but it doesn't adrees any problem the Heavy has. All you get is him to stay shooting more time even if he is outdamaged. I don't like it.

Heavy just needs the gloves of running urgently and he will probably be pretty viable. That will be really exciting.