I recall the MMM vs coL match on Granary where MMM swapped out a scout for a heavy on their push to last. They jumped their demo & solly towards the point/ on the pipes with uber, and when that wore off, the medic went back and healed the heavy, who basically slow-pushed towards the point, doing like 10-dmg, long-range minigun hits to the remaining classes.

I think when the offense's soldiers and demos died, the heavy was able to clean-up and do focussed damage to everyone else close to the point.

This got me thinking because most comp-uses of heavies are on defence and, even then, they rarely work out. By that I mean a scout or pyro would have done more damage or helped their team defend longer. This question was also inspired by the recent discussion on why more classes aren't seen in competitive play.

Some ideas:
-When MMM jumped their sollies/demos towards the enemy sollies/demos, you can't focus fire the heavy, which is what usually takes him down
-After uber in that situation, the medic is usually in a bad spot, so healing a heavy is not a bad idea

Comparing heavy against the scout and sniper in this case:
-Scouts have to fight other scouts in that push, and a heavy against scout in open fields is not a bad matchup
-A sniper in that situation will do a few 150-charge bodyshots, whereas the constant 10-long-range-damage (and increasing) can make up for it
-The 300-HP heavy being healed can outlast the survivors of the push, and usually in that push it's a matter of who is out-lasting who

Discuss.

The biggest threat to a heavy is massed stickies. The heavy either needs to stop attacking players to either run or shoot away the stickies, or just take the damage and hope it survives.

I don't remember the MMM vs CoL match, but I'd bet that the jumpers managed to kill the demo.

If the Heavy can get halfway to the point without being seriously damaged he is really strong and will make it really hard for the team to defend. He is also really good for the second point so he can play conservatedly so if the team dies he can defend it.

On the other hand if they focus fire on the Heavy someone can sneak up and cap or do some serious damage. Taking down an overhealed Heavy will require at least two classes shooting at it, that's a lot and since it's a fast, open point it's not worth it.

So I think we agree.

The biggest threat to a heavy is massed stickies. The heavy either needs to stop attacking players to either run or shoot away the stickies, or just take the damage and hope it survives.

Could you elaborate? Are you talking about a Sticky Carpet/trap or Demomen spamming the Heavy? Where exactly do you think the problem appears?

well asuming you are pushing with uber to last and the scout is switched for a heavy, if the demoman is trying to take out the heavy with sticky spam then the heavy is pretty much doing his job. If defenders are too busy being concentrated on the heavy while the soldiers and demo jump them it will pretty much be gg for them. Although personally when I play scout I prefer to go sniper at last, since if the enemy team has no sniper and it's even advantage I am sure I'll be able to get a pick and when my team pushes in be able to support them better than I would if I would be playing scout or heavy usually.

Also heavy is the best class.

Could you elaborate? Are you talking about a Sticky Carpet/trap or Demomen spamming the Heavy? Where exactly do you think the problem appears?

There are really only 5 effective ways in the game to kill a heavy while the medic is overhealing it: A fully charged head shot from a sniper, a back stab, ~5 stickies, a krits or out DPSing the heal with several members of the team. Anything else is going to take a pretty long time. If you hit him with stickies 1 at a time, the medic will keep healing him. If you hit him with 4-5 at a time he will go down in 1 shot and the medic won't get a chance to heal at all.

Opposing team has two options:
-focus on the heavy and everyone else will kill them
OR
-focus on everyone else and then the heavy will be fully buffed and the other team won't have as much ammo in their ammo clip.

As long as the heavy is able to get there without taking massive damage or popping uber really early, then it's hard to counter.

Using a heavy in that way increases the effectiveness of the push if the enemy does not have a sniper, but it also increases the risk. Jumping your sollies/demo commits them entirely to the push, so it's nice to be able to escape and hold 2 with your scouts and medic if, say, you only get 2 picks without much other damage before your 3 explosive classes go down. If you're using a heavy, he can't run from the 4v3 and you'll be losing point 2 (unless he delays them long enough for your spawns).

On the other hand, if you get a lot of damage on or keep numbers fairly even, the heavy basically guarantees success. He can't be ganged up on or edged from a corner, and he doesn't have to spin down. There's the win.

Hm. So in competitive TF2, running a Heavy is pretty much "Go Big or Go Home", I suppose, since it has the power to ensure great justice and victory, but it also has the power to ruin your team from the inside.

loltf2epiphany

I love medicing heavies. they roll face in most cases...otherwise I'm screwed...

If you hit him with 4-5 at a time he will go down in 1 shot and the medic won't get a chance to heal at all.

So you suggest the Demoman should Sticky focus on the Heavy? I mean, I know what kills the Heavy, what I ask is your opinion on what would be the weakness of a Heavy push in the last point of Granary.

"Go Big or Go Home",

I think that the risk of the Heavy is not reduced to playing big or "overkilling" , I think it's risky in that it needs more teamwork and better strategies than running a Soldier or Scout. It needs the team far more than those two classes.

Having Heavy makes your team less flexible but gives you more firepower. The risk is exactly that, a bad push and you will have less chances of retreating or out-DMing the oponent. Your Heavy dying is far more damaging than the Pocket Soldier dying because you have invested more time and positioning than you would have spent in a Soldier.

A Demoman or both of the Two Soldiers can fill the same role while the Heavy can't. Your strategy is more prone to breaking down because of a flaw than if you played a Soldier.

In other words, playing a Heavy badly is worse than playing a Soldier badly.

Just my two cents.

So you suggest the Demoman should Sticky focus on the Heavy? I mean, I know what kills the Heavy, what I ask is your opinion on what would be the weakness of a Heavy push in the last point of Granary.


After both solis and the demo have jumped on you, and your team's demo is still up, I'd probably say go for it. Wait for the scouts to pull back for heals or die and start tossing them over the pipes. It takes less than 6 seconds to kill a heavy with a sticky carpet. That's a pretty reasonable amount of time to expect whoever is up with you to cover the point.

The Heavy is great because he's the only character who can heal the medic.

That is the least of his worries...

in close, a soldier can take down a heavy who is being overhealed with rockets because the rockets arent traveling far, and the heavy is taking damage faster then the medic can heal him. Im not saying its easy, because a heavy with good reaction time and aim can flick to you and tear you apart. My point is that in close it is possible for one soldier to take down a heavy even if they are being overhealed.

At long range tho, there is a significant delay between each rocket hit since they travel slow, and you might miss one so he can pretty much stand there all day and take long distance spam from soldiers. At long range you need to focus fire the hell out of a heavy before he gets into mid/close range to do damage. The fact that your heavy classes need to focus the heavy to try and take him down before he gets in close gives his team a chance to get aggressive and push into last. They can also jump on your combo and really do some serious damage. if you turn your attention to the jumping soldiers, you will most likely be forced to pop uber (if you have one) and even if you get them, the heavy is still walking up on you, ready to uber as yours runs out. by then hes in perfect range to wipe out anything with the help of an uber.

The biggest threat to a heavy, as someone else said... is a sticky trap. if you know the other team is going to run a heavy against you on last, you are better off putting a trap up close to one of the doors, and have the soldiers spam the hell out of the opposite door. Try to force them out the side where you have the trap and take out the heavy before he can do anything. You could also run a sniper to try and take down the heavy.

If you have the time to switch your scouts out before pushing last, having one go heavy, and the other go sniper is a pretty beast strategy. Put a soldier up in the top room near the pipe, watching for a flank. Put the sniper in the room to his left and try to get a pick. if they are running a sniper to counter your heavy you can try to get him, or any other good pick. The soldier in the top room keeps him safe before the assault on last actually starts. send a soldier and demo out on the right side, and walk up (dont waste HP jumping yet). Send the heavy/medic down the left side to draw the fire. Once the left and right pushes have started, delay the top room soldier by a few seconds. If someone is on the top pipe they will have started to focus on the guys on the ground by now, giving you a chance to get through the door and take them down. if you are able to get everyone into the yard, have a soldier jump to the high pipe and spam down, while the demo spams from distance on his way to the point (you could even try to block off the door to their resupply with a trap so they cant fall back), and the other soldier just jumps on top of them. All that spam will get a few kills, force an uber, or both. have the solly start to fall back as soon as he jumps, let the soldier up top, and the demo keep spamming. by now the heavy should be really close to the point ready to mop up. Dont forget... this whole time you have a sniper in the window helping


scouts are great at capping, and backcaps can win you rounds. If you know you will be walking into a fully setup team when you push last, the scouts become slightly less useful (unless you are just a total beast on scout). The scattergun does very little damage at long range, and without a heavy to draw the fire away scouts arent as effective for that final push. its such a long distance to cross in the open (whereas on badlands, you sneak a scout in from low left and ninja cap it... works great because of how the map is laid out)

You have a really fast respawn when you are in control of the enemy 2nd point on granary. Sending your scouts in on a kamakazi mission before you attack could result in a pick, or maybe a forced uber. If not, they will have a chance to switch over to heavy and sniper, and be back in less then 10 seconds to push again.

in close, a soldier can take down a heavy who is being overhealed with rockets because the rockets arent traveling far, and the heavy is taking damage faster then the medic can heal him. Im not saying its easy, because a heavy with good reaction time and aim can flick to you and tear you apart. My point is that in close it is possible for one soldier to take down a heavy even if they are being overhealed.


rockets can do 112 max, overhealed heavy = 450
112 x 4 = 448
:>

that's also saying you're doing meatshotting point blank rockets, doing self-damage all while the heavy's firing at the closest target

Heavies own.
They are unstoppable.

Only reason they're rarely used is because they are too slow and ADHD gamers cant stand to take that long to get to mid.

Facts.

It's not that they don't like waiting for personal reasons, it's that being 5v6 until the Heavy arrives is not worth it because he is not going to turn the tide of the battle alone, specially because the other team is going to push your team to low ground and keep the boxes.

No matter how good you are, you can't beat Soldiers using the boxes as cover, you need your team holding one and in a 5v6 match that's far too hard.

@trasher

No, the time between each shot is the same no matter the distance. The rate of fire doesn't change.

im aware distance doesnt change the rate of fire, but the longer distance the rocket has to travel the longer will take to make contact with its target. the more time in between hits, the less damage it will do to a heavy who is being overhealed. Therefore it is more effective to fight them up close (at least in terms of being able to do more damage faster since the rockets arent traveling far... its still not a GOOD position to be in against a heavy/medic combo... just makin a point)

as for the person who pointed out the max damage of the rockets vs the overhealed heavy. Yes you are right. I rarely play on pub servers as I am a competitive player... so i dont find myself fighting heavies too often. When i do fight a heavy, in close 4 rockets and 1 shotgun blast usually does the trick though

Uh, dude, the time between hits does not change at a distance. The time it takes the rockets to reach the target obviously changes, but the time between hits is the same at any range (assuming all your shots hit and you're firing as quickly as you can). You get lower dps at a distance because rocket damage depends on range.

But you're a competitive player. Why am I telling you this?