Renegade Replicant

Points: 520, Level: 10

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Now, I'm curious if anyone has a good reason to perfer the bonesaw over the ubersaw. Outside of an all melee battle, I don't really see any reason. Even so, I'd still rather use the ubersaw. Sure its a bit faster, but if you're going to have to use it, wouldn't you rather pick up the incredibly handy 25% boost?

My question isn't really if there is a good reason to perfer it, but rather, should Valve give it some sort buff? Kinda like how they switched up the benefits of the blut and syringe gun, to great effect. It created two different styles of gameplay with the medic. But with the saws, the ubersaw feels like a straight upgrade. So, should Valve give the bonesaw some buff to create a different gameplay style and give a reason to have to pick between the two? If so, what do you think they should do with it?

I don't mean anything way out there or game breaking, just something that would even out the two weapons, open up for new ways to play the class, and give the bonesaw more use.

NeoRussia

Points: 1,574, Level: 23

Activity: 15.2%

Bonesaw is never good. Even the speed boost sucks, there is not point to it. Most melee battles I come across you would be strafing side to side or back and forth or against a quick scout he will retreat after you hit him. Attack speed doesn't matter unless you can make use of it by being in front of the enemy's face and w+m1ing into him. It IS a straight upgrade. I'd say give a passive buff to it just like the medic gets a better auto-heal rate from using the syringe gun, like more HP for healthpacks, or a longer healing beam. Nothing too advantageous.

Renegade Replicant

Points: 520, Level: 10

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Exactly. I was trying to be fair in it to some degree, but imo, the ubersaw is a straight upgrade, no question. Even in all melee, I still use ubersaw because of the 25%.

GrieVe

Points: 80, Level: 1

Activity: 51.5%

Fun fact: In an ESEA match against Pandemic on Yukon, the Steam servers were down and we were forced to use all standard weapons. We were defending last, and everyone was dead except for me. There was a Demo and a Scout on the last point capping. I +forwarded onto it to block it, killed the Demo with my needles. I then pulled out the saw, in this case the regular Bonesaw because of no unlocks, after my clip emptied and the scout was still alive. I missed the first swing but hit with the second. I had 9 hp remaining when it connected. The point here is that if I had been using the ubersaw, I probably wouldn't have been able to connect with that second swing and thus save the point due to the slower swing speed :]

Not that bonesaw is better, it's not, but it was an interesting case where it did come in handy

Sigma

Points: 4,396, Level: 44

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I remember that, Grieve. Very clutch.

I think a good change to the bonesaw would be to make your uber charge a bit faster, that is, a 39s (or 38s?) charge rather than 40s. You could choose between the chance of getting that 10s boost from time to time, or having a passive bonus... similar to the difference between the bluts/regular.

Bodknocks

Points: 1,538, Level: 23

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Last time I used the bonesaw in a scrim I was amazed at how fast that thing swings. I got two saws off on a demo before he even knew I was behind him.

That said I don't think there's any reason to use it. There are of course certain situations where one would save you and the other would not, but overall the ubersaw is just better and can lead to some really clutch saves and escapes.

Renegade Replicant

Points: 520, Level: 10

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Ah, man, that would make it a tough choice, but most people would end up going bonesaw. But then you wouldn't have those moments where the medic's team dies and the medic manages to get one ubersaw hit, giving him enough for an uber and clutching it. We've all had moments like this.

I like that idea, though, I imagine to maintain equal uber ground, most medics would go bonesaw.

Sigma

Points: 4,396, Level: 44

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Yeah, the trick is in making the passive bonus insignificant enough to make a choice still exist; with a 39s uber rather than 40s, I would debate over which saw to use... 38s would probably have me almost always using the bonesaw.

I think they overdid it with the syringe gun's passive bonus as well. If it was 2-5hp/s vs 1-4hp/s rather than 3-6 vs 1-4, the use of the bluts and regular would be much more balanced. Though, I suppose this is more of a choice in pubs where the needles come out more often. Not to mention 3hp/s after being hit is just ridiculous; back in the day, taking spam actually mattered!

Bodknocks

Points: 1,538, Level: 23

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I don't think charging 1s faster (would it be 1.3 or 0.7 with a kritzkrieg? Is the bonus multiplicative or additive?) would make enough of a viable sidegrade. We can all remember those times we've died at 99% but on the whole a 1s advantage isn't going to make any real difference in most games.

Sigma

Points: 4,396, Level: 44

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Exactly the point. Ubersaw hits are so infrequent that their overall impact is also low. On occasion, you'll get a hit, manage to live, then actually be able to capitalize on the charge advantage (then record the clip for your frag vid), but mostly it's not useful. With a small passive bonus to charge speed, on occasion, you will hit 100% and pop immediately to save yourself in a situation where you would have otherwise died, but most of the time you'll sit on that 100% and it will make no difference.

It's all just theory though. I doubt we'll see anything like this in the game any time soon, or at all.

Bodknocks

Points: 1,538, Level: 23

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I just have my reservations about changing the uber game. If ubers were built any faster than they already are it would turn into Uber Fortress 2.

Renegade Replicant

Points: 520, Level: 10

Activity: 69.7%

I think thats fair. If its slight enough that its not completely game changing, then it keeps it more even. I feel that more medics when begin to run bonesaw still because of the whole "every second counts". I think I'd consider it situational. Change it by map and who the opposing medic is and his play style. If he likes to rush his uber, I'd go bonesaw. If he's more passive, ubersaw. Both of which are purely examples.

general_norris

Points: 4,898, Level: 47

Activity: 15.2%

The thing is, when are you going to use your Ubersaw? If you are so desperate so as to need it getting 25% uber is not the point.

Grimm

Points: 1,541, Level: 23

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That's why the bonus for the Bonesaw would be so slim. Welcome to the discussion.

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hitscan prefire

Renegade Replicant

Points: 520, Level: 10

Activity: 69.7%

The bonus to the bonesaw (remember, this is just a theory thrown out here. I'd love to hear any you might have ) wouldn't be significant enough that it'd be really hurtful to use the ubersaw. There have been times where the ubersaw saved my life or allowed me to get an uber to stop a cap. So, it'd end up being something thats more situational. Read my earlier post for my theory.

general_norris

Points: 4,898, Level: 47

Activity: 15.2%

What I mean is: Would you use the saws if you had ammo? The DPS is lower and the base damage (65) quite low. It's useful if you are close and you know the enemy is very damaged but without crits Melee is not the best option.

The Medic reloads really fast and you don't fire very often so I don't really see the saws as something very useful.

If you are without ammo and need to kill someone you can use the saw but those situations are really rare.

I'm not medic but I as Heavy don't wear the KGB because if I'm so desperate so as needing to go melee I need every drop of DPS I can get a hold of.

If I'm not mistaken the Bonesaw can make two hits on a somewhat distracted opponent and kill him fast enough so he only fires one time while the Ubersaw give the opponent more time to fire. I can be wrong though, I'm not a medic and could be wrong.

Of course, this difference is small time-wise and more often than not getting two hits means defending the last point becomes much more feasible. Given the pace of the game and that most teams will wait a bit for Uber you will probably have 50% when they attack you.

Now, all this is theorycraft. In the end, I don't think this matters a lot.

Jeeka

Points: 889, Level: 16

Activity: 33.3%

they should give the bonesaw like a ~10% faster uber charge rate, to encourage the use of the bonesaw, kinda like the tradeoff between blutsauger and the syringe gun

plus the bonesaw taunt is so much cooler than the ubersaw, a violin? honestly, how classy >:3

Renegade Replicant

Points: 520, Level: 10

Activity: 69.7%

Saw that made the top 10 plays of February. Congrats.

GrieVe

Points: 80, Level: 1

Activity: 51.5%

You are getting way too caught up in statistics and theory and placing way too much value on a perfect DPS value. Yes the saws have a lower DPS than the needles, but that is assuming you hit every single needle, which is pretty much highly unlikely. Furthermore, the difference is that while it does lower DPS, it is front-loaded damage. The saws do 65 damage starting at point 0. The needles do 10 damage at point 0. By the time you get to point 15 you are way behind in DPS is you are using the saw, but who knows if you are even alive by then.

Not saying the saw is good, but you are discounting its value and use way too much based on theory and DPS numbers, you need to take into account the front-loaded damage.

general_norris

Points: 4,898, Level: 47

Activity: 15.2%

Let's try to focus more on the game instead of numbers becuase as GrieVe says this is too number-crunching so as to be useful.

Imagine you are alone and the point is being capped. In those cases you will flee instead of fighting becuas saving your life is far more important than preventing the capture. You can't use saws here, because you are running and getting caught means death.

This means this only matters when it comes to the last point. Now, if you are alone, will you use the gun or the saw to defend it? The saw seems to slow, the ubersaw even slower.

Of course this is a false dillemma and perhaps it's better to shoot the gun and when bullets run out, swritch and hit for 65 damage, hoping for the kill.

If you kill the enemy with that, the Ubersaw is better. If not, it depends on how much slower (in absolute numbers, not relative). If the number is big enough so as to avoid one rocket then it's better for me, if not, the Ubersaw is going to achieve the same goal more often than not.

The Bonesaw RoF is as high as the RL so if you hit first (Or he is not looking in your direction) you will kill the Soldier before it can kill you. The Ubersaw adds 0.16 seconds per swing for a total of 0.32.

A third of a second seems prety important when it comes to not getting a point-blank missile that would mean death.

However if there are several enemies getting an uber means you can stall all of them instead of killing just one.

So, what do you think of my analisis?

Sigma

Points: 4,396, Level: 44

Activity: 12.1%

I really didn't think there was a debate between the current ubersaw and bonesaw. Almost any time it becomes worthwhile to pull out the saw, you're generally about half a second from being dead, so a second hit with either weapon is pretty unlikely. It's better to get that occasional advantage from the first hit for when you somehow live than to hope for the extremely rare situation where you're using melee and have time for multiple hits.

Also, needles are much better than the saw in a prolonged fight. The saw is only worth it damage-wise if you can start or finish an engagement with it.

Jesus

Points: 3,250, Level: 37

Activity: 0%

Here's a question for GrieVe, since you said the Steam servers were down for that game, what would you guys have done if you were stuck with the Kritzkrieg? I've had occasions where I'd be stuck with the FaN because of having no connection to Steam's servers. But in a case like that I'd think you'd reschedule or something since you're limited to just the Kritz.

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GrieVe

Points: 80, Level: 1

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Would've rescheduled. For one we, blight, don't like Kritz at all to begin with. You -rarely- see us ever run it. Further, even if we were a good team with it (ala EG), it would be way too much of a handicap having to use it every single round. It's way too easy to deal with if you know it is coming.

brainpower4

Points: 1,487, Level: 22

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Out of curiosity, were soldiers able to equip the Equalizer? The fast retreats have become so integral to the way I play soldier that having to play with the shovel all the time would probably leave me dead an extra 5-6 times a round.

Renegade Replicant

Points: 520, Level: 10

Activity: 69.7%

If you HAVE to defend a point, or to save your own life, the speed of the saw isn't likely to matter as much because you're going to die pretty quickly when you come in aggressively with the saw. To have the ability to potentially get an uber from a hit is important to me. If you are at 75-99 percent uber and you're defending the last point and your entire team is dead, getting that last hit and popping uber could very well save you the round, at least for a little while. Of course this is purely situational and this does NOT have a 100 percent guarantee of working (but, of course, it has). But to have the CHANCE to do that is important to me. The speed of the saw won't matter at all when its say, a solly, a scout, and medic attacking you on the final point (and your team is dead). You WON'T win. Rockets >>>>>>>>> saw. But you CAN block the last capture with an uber.

general_norris

Points: 4,898, Level: 47

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^So probably it all comes down to the chances of getting an uber because of one hit and the probabilities of getting a second hit.

Ten seconds of Uber can make your team able to respawn and defend the point.

Mmmm, too bad I don't play Medic very often.

Sway

Points: 1,224, Level: 20

Activity: 54.5%

This entire conversation is 100% speculation and theoretical, unfortunately. Both saws have their uses, advantages, and disadvantages. We can all place different weapons into hypothetical (and usually rare) circumstances and make an argument as to why it would be better to use X weapon over its counter-part, Y weapon. But here's my two cents.

Overall, the choice of saw is not a big decision for me. Mostly because I simply _rarely_ use it. I'll bust out my Needlegun/Blutsauger occasionally when I'm fending off Scouts/retreating/BAATTTLLLLEEE MEEEDDIIIIKK. But my saw gets very rare use. However, GrieVe had the perfect situation where Bonesaw was superior. Personally I think if I HAVE to use my saw, chances are I'm only going to get one hit in. If I get two, chances are the ~1/2 a second the Bonesaw buys me won't help as much as a possible +25% Ubercharge.

Overall, I find you can get more mileage out of the Ubersaw over the Bonesaw unless you're actively going out of your way for kills with your Bonesaw. But the added utility of 25% Uber is just too good to pass up IMO, if you find yourself in a position to make use of it. But, again, I find myself in those types of positions fairly rarely, and even when I do, I generally fail miserably in my attempt to be a ninja Medic. YMMV. :D

Peace~