Hades

Points: 529, Level: 10

Activity: 16.7%

IMO, after giving the map list some thought, I feel that it is decent.

Considering CEVO has become a league where newer teams begin organized play, I would expect the map list to be criticized immensely by the community. With that said, you have to look at each map as if you were a leader of a lower team. What does each map entail? What would need to be taught? How long will it take to teach these maps to the rest of the team?

After I reviewed the map list, besides being shocked at the lack of warmfront/yukon/snakewater, these are the maps that I thought the community would criticize:


Week 3 - ctf_atrophy_b4
CTF is a totally different strat compared to 5CP (the game type newer comp players are introduced to). If teams are going to learn how to play that game type competitively, at least use a map that they are familiar with, like Turbine.

Week 7 - cp_obscure_rc4
With Warmfront, Yukon and Snakewater still available, I'm sure some are confused when they saw this map picked. Seeing teams strategies on unpopular maps makes the game really interesting, but for most teams in CEVO, I would imagine that they would rather play something they're a little more familiar with.

Week 8 - cp_freight
This was a map selection that really left me scratching my head. Even if you consider all of the popular maps that were left out, Freight is still a decent choice, even though it has become a lot less popular in the competitive scene.

Still, I'm sure many other members of the community thought the same thing I did: "Why not Freight_final1?"

Again, these don't necessarily reflect my opinions of the map selections, but, that's what I believe the community is thinking about some of the map selections.

Cash50

Points: 2,238, Level: 30

Activity: 25.0%

How about we replace athorphy with cp_mainline

anybody???

I'm just tired of every league having the same maps season after season after season. I want to play something different.

Freight_final1 is a nice map but the spawn places won't let u back inside o-o

then again

freight's spawn times are messed up

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dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

I'm glad you can agree (mostly) with this list and can be reasonable when discussing your criticisms.

For atrophy, it was chosen because the metagame of the map is not that of a ctf map, but more of a 5cp map. Teams must simultaneously protect their moving intel, assault the enemies intel, protect their flag carrier, and take out the enemy's flag carrier. The small map size helps promote more deathmatch skills as opposed to standard who-has-more-guns-in-one-area that some smaller maps become accustomed to (i.e. viaduct). This is not a bad thing, it's just different.

cp_freight was selected for a few reasons, most of which you won't care about. The key points were that the second point of the map is more open so there is less chance for a single player to lock down the entire area. For example, because of the boards in final1, a sniper has a very hard time taking out an entrenched engineer without exposing himself and getting destroyed by the sentry. It means that a single heavy-medic combo will not shut down a team as easily if they come in through the same entrance. These hypothetical situations are somewhat obscure so the short answer is that we decided that the original freight would be a better experience for competitive play.

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

I can live with removing atrophy for mainline, providing enough people can agree with it. We tried to make the maplist as varied as possible without going to the dark side of 6v6 payload/plr and without an overload of ctf.

If we can arrive on an agreement on this I can move on to re-examining the weapon list.

roces9

Points: 1,431, Level: 22

Activity: 8.3%

My 2cp:

Don't tinker with the maplist; it will do everyone good to see some maps other than blands/gpit/gran. Shoot, teams may even benefit by finding a broader perspective on TF2 maps and then applying their knowledge to the staple maps.

The weapons, however, need to get a 2nd look from the CEVO community. Poll, whatever gdoc shenanigans shadow talked about etc.

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mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

freight_final1 has a better mid fight with the roofs, a slightly better last point (with legit 2 ways to push last), and fixed respawn times, it's 100% better for competitive play and anyone who disagrees has not played both in a league match or even a higher-level pug.

Hades

Points: 529, Level: 10

Activity: 16.7%

Thanks for the explanations.

The Atrophy selection makes much more sense now.

As for freight, I totally disagree that freight is a better experience for competitive play compared to freight_final1, though. Some of those reasons are mentioned in mustardoverlord's post, but I think we can just agree to disagree on which is more suitable for competitive play.

Any reasoning for Obscure over Yukon/Warmfront/Snakewater? Was it just to add some creativity to the rotation?

Weegee

Points: 2,014, Level: 28

Activity: 8.3%

Maybe leagues play those maps for a reason..., like being the best suited for 6v6? Those of us who didn't play ESEA this season and are going to next season wanna get those maps into play. Don't make CEVO your "for fun" league with maps no one knows.

OR you could make your own league with custom maps, that could be fun for people who like those maps.

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

The representatives of the community picked the maps. All I provided was a list of maps I've played in leagues, scrims, or pugs that I, myself, enjoyed, and a few maps that were competitive standards in other leagues--all maps that were put in the rotation were approved by all of the members in attendance until we had come up with an 8 week season (the only non-negotiable elements of the meeting were the banning of the sandman, wrangler, and that the preseason map was cp_petrol--I was even willing to allow natasha).

So, the reason for Obscure over Yukon/Warmfront/Snakewater is that we just decided to do Obscure. I can't really think of a good explanation; we kind of just picked it.

You may notice a bunch of Euro-standard maps (gully, obscure, freight)--they're inclusion in the rotation was influenced by my love of ESL and the fact that too many players haven't seen them (barring, of course, freight). Lucky for me, the community members also liked those maps.

Obscure is my personal favorite 5cp map and, though I love Yukon, Warmfront/Coldfront, and Snakewater, they'll never have a floating health kit at mid. Obscure is just so... weird; I love it.

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

I think you mean "league". The reason that I have not adopted the ESEA banlist and maplist is because CEVO is not ESEA. Just because a map is "best suited for 6v6" does not mean it has to be included; we'd have way too many maps for that.

As for CEVO being a "for fun" league, I'm sorry you feel that way. These maps are legitimate 6v6 maps that are regularly played, save, perhaps, for atrophy and petrol as they are new. Maybe not by ESEA but there are other leagues besides CEVO and ESEA. I, personally, am a big fan of ESL, but there's also ETF2L, TWL, UGC, and countless others. On top of that, it's good to get out of your comfort zone.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

obscure and freight were not played in esl and are out of both esl and etf2l, both are really stalematey and obscure has worse fps problems than ANY other map

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

I'm thinking of a good way to present a modified/revamped banlist--bear with me.

JaySkye

Points: 1,536, Level: 23

Activity: 25.0%

i have the worst computer and i get a constant 75 fps at least at mid fights on obscure so what

__________________
tA. Jay (-◡-): lol
tA. Jay (-◡-): i just went gru heavy
tA. Jay (-◡-): i ran under water on freight came behind the other team
tA. Jay (-◡-): about to kill some
tA. Jay (-◡-): and then i get trained immediatley

Cash50

Points: 2,238, Level: 30

Activity: 25.0%

That's why you practice the ESEA maps during their corresponding week.

cp_mainline used to be in ESEA and almost all of the old school players like playing old maps once in awhile. This is just giving the new teams a blast from the past.

another option is playing teams right now that are doing playoff maps IF YOU REALLY WANT TO PLAY THE MAPS THAT BADLY.

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TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

I remember Mainline having the stigma of being completely terrible though.

Of course that's when everyone discovered the utter horror that is double natascha heavy :|.

roces9

Points: 1,431, Level: 22

Activity: 8.3%

Good move.

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Ze 'boats do nothing!

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

if you get a constant 75 fps on any mid fight you definitely don't have the worst computer


how about follower instead of mainline? it's a lot more fun :P

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

I am a fan of follower; it was brought up at the meeting but didn't have enough votes to make the 8 map cut.

I'll try to draft up a new item-ban proposal tonight and present it. Check both here and the CEVO website.

Hawkeye

Points: 5,566, Level: 51

Activity: 8.3%

I'll be honest, if Maps are up for discussions, I would like to see an old standby swapped with one of the reverse maps from the OZ Fortress deal a while back. They are pretty fun to play..

http://hsdl.matchmod.net/tf/maps/

That site is what I maintained for the teams I sponsored and when I ran leagues, it got most of the maps that have been played in the past on it (besides the stock ones obviously). A few of those I genuinely miss.

Mainline looked fun until the week it was played and EVERYONE started really hating the map. I don't believe it was related to the double natascha heavy, that if I recall was more on gullywash.

Obscure is fun, but was a very slow map and was just boring to play and/or watch after a while. It slowly dropped in popularity in Europe and never really caught on here for good reason.

I think croissant would be good..

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

Hawkeye, I really like the reverse map idea. Reverse badlands is actually something I've wanted to see in competitive in the NA scene.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

croissant is worth a try, too bad pre-season is occupied already :<

there's also process, metalworks, etc.

waxpax

Points: 2,304, Level: 31

Activity: 33.3%

Croissant is bad, and Arnold is not looking to take any feedback on it that doesn't already back up his assumptions. My pug group played a very early version of Croissant to very bad reviews, Arnold made changes to the map and the next week we looked at the map again. No one in that pug was willing to play the map again, they all said it wouldn't work in comp because second was too hard to take and they didn't like that you had to turn around as a medic once you cap 4 to move into last.

Petrol will probably play pretty bad too, most people don't like AD, I mean, gpit was nearly voted out this last season and Petrol is linear 5 point AD and linear AD really hasn't worked that well yet in comp (6s at least). This is the game play of petrol: overrun the point, move your heavies to the choke to spam out Red while the lighter classes cap, if you sufficiently weakened the other team with your spam while capping, take the next point essentially for free, repeat until you hit last and hope they don't have two guns and a heavy defending. Played an early version of the map in my pug group, first 2 halves, no one got by point 2. Third half, Blu rolled thru all 5 points in like 4 min by controlling the chokes between points. There have been a number of changes to the map since I played it and I was thinking of trying it again, but I don't think it will really work in 6s that well since the gameplay is rather boring once you realize all you need to do is control the only way into the point to stop the defense.

The backwards maps hurt my head, we pugged backwards blands in my pug group and I thought I was going to kill someone. They aren't fun to play a lot, maybe once off as a mind fuck, but I wouldn't want to scrim one for a week.

Process is the best custom I've played yet, that should've been your preseason map, or it should've replaced Atrophy. Metalworks is also very good and should have been considered for rotation. The bonus to those two maps is that Scorpio is really interested in comp feedback.

TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

Think you I forget such a thing?

I didn't make the choice to put it in. Hell, I actually hate the map :<. Working on it is like having to chain down a monster. I'm trying to stick to the original aspect of "hold the vital choke" to cap but as you pointed out that creates gaps and big periods of spam into an area.

I also like Scorpio's stuff but at the same time... I don't really like process that much? :| Metalworks though IS a map I enjoy, and I would not mind playing it.

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

Revised banlist (replace this one with the old one):

The Soda Popper
Enforcer
Shortstop
Battalions Backup
Mad Milk
Sandman
Candy Cane
The Boston Basher
Back Scratcher
The Ullapool Caber
Natasha
Brass Beast
Tomislav
GRU
The Fists of Steel
Buffalo Steak Sandwich
Wrangler
Vita-saw
Cow Mangler
Righteous Bison
Disciplinary Action
Liberty Launcher
Reserve Shooter

Deus Ex Weapons
All weapons released during the season
All full item sets, regardless of whether or not they require a hat

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

unban candy cane kthx

and back scratcher

otherwise it looks fine to me

bairmaster

Points: 843, Level: 16

Activity: 8.3%

much better

__________________
sincerely,
master of bairs

general_norris

Points: 8,973, Level: 65

Activity: 8.3%

Hey, this list is much better!

Why ban the Backscratcher? =/

Why? It makes no sense to do that. The Tank Buster set is not going to break the game, why ban it? It's absurd to ban so underpowered stuff or Pyro's best chance to see play.

I really appreciate your banlist and the work required to change it tough.

dubel_07

Points: 3,305, Level: 37

Activity: 91.7%

Backscratcher builds uber faster and if we allow 1 set we have to allow them all as it is not fair. On top of that, any slight advantage, no matter how small, in a 6v6 match will resonate more than in a typical pub/pug/highlander game--it is a similar concept to how losing your spy in a highlander match is not as big a deal as losing your spy in a 6v6 game.

TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

Technically not faster, but builds more off of the loss in HP.

waxpax

Points: 2,304, Level: 31

Activity: 33.3%

I don't see the reason to ban the set bonuses, I mean, there was reason to do so when the polycount set first came out and you needed to buy the hat or spend 2.5 weeks to get the metal to craft one of the set hats, but it's been so long since that update that anyone that wants the set hats has had time to craft them, trade for them, or buy them. And there is a way to craft each set hat with no chance of getting it wrong, it just takes four refined and a set weapon. Banning set bonuses that don't require a hat for the sole reason of "we can't allow one without allowing them all" is fucking retarded too, you're the admin, you make the rules depending on how your judgement sees fit. If you don't want to allow the Medieval Medic set because +1 regen is OP or something but want to allow the Tank Buster, just do it. Your logic for set bonuses is silly, I mean, if you allow one unlock, you'd have to allow them all just to be fair, right? No, that would be silly.

No reason to real reason to ban Backscratcher or Boston Basher. Who cares if you get more charge off a Backscratcher pyro than one without the unlock? You don't really build on pyros, I could see it if you want to limit the utility of pyro in some instances, though. I mean, when you basically suicide a pyro into the enemy, like on blands mid, you don't really lose anything because you never have to heal him much anyway, but if he makes it to a health pack, it's going to greatly increase his effectiveness and it could cause for some sort of roaming pyro, I guess, if someone really wanted to use that strat. The Boston Basher, I can only see banned for three reasons: because it allows for extra jumps (but the health penalty for doing so is so large that it's really not going to factor into much regular play); because it allows the scout to build uber without using any ammo (still don't really see the problem, if you build on the scout, your pocket has more ammo, but your heavies' buffs will probably suffer and you lose that scout on the flank. Yeah, when it's just a medic and a scout, there's a clear advantage, but, why not? The bat is the weakest melee in the game, why not buff it with bleed at the risk of killing yourself? I mean, soldier has the equalizer, why not give the scout the Basher?); or because DX8 can't see anything when under the affect of bleed (but, honestly, if you ban because of that, you should ban all other bleed weapons and jarate.)

Candy Cane? Why, when half the classes in the game have explosive weapons a candy cane scout is going to be at a disadvantage most of the time. Unless it's bugged where anyone the scout damages drops a pill whether the scout killed him or not, or something like that (been a long time since I messed around with the weapon).

I don't really see the reason to ban the Shortstop, either. It no longer has the slow down effect, not that it was very noticeable in the first place and it arguably is a reasonable option for a scout to run since it adds mid range damage which can help against soldiers and demos in exchange for lowered damage output that can be a hindrance against other scouts.

You should ban Gunslinger, though, that thing is so annoying to play against, it's like having an extra half person on your team.