Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

Ladies and gents, here is the official map rotation for the tournament. While we retain the right to change maps if problems arise in upper and lower brackets, this cycle is a safe bet. Here they are in order:

1. cp_coldfront

2. koth_viaduct

3. cp_gravelpit

4. pl_upward

5. cp_granary

6. koth_lakeside_final

7. cp_glacier_rc6

8. pl_badwater

9. cp_gorge

10. cp_badlands

11. ctf_turbine_pro

Week 12 is the grand finals week and that will be bo3.

Hildreth

Points: 1,679, Level: 24

Activity: 8.3%

Glacier - never heard of it.

Badlands is bad for HL as well.

Rest looks fine.

pala4

Points: 252, Level: 5

Activity: 83.3%

never played koth_lakeside_final, probably it will be a good choice for highlander, and you definitely should add cp_steel - one of the greatest maps

TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

No use arguing over map choices!

Which version of Glacier are you using? RC6?

Emberstrife

Points: 180, Level: 3

Activity: 25.0%

We've played most of these maps as part of the ETF2L HCC, UGC highlander league or friendly scrims, and overall this is a good list with several issues.

Coldfront is prone to stalemates due to how difficult CP1 and CP2 are to attack. However if you absolutely must include it, please consider using cp_warmfront instead - which is the same map with a slightly more streamlined layout and substantial improvements in performance. Link.

Viaduct, Granary and Upward - all good choices.

Lakeside plays poorly in Highlander, mainly due to it's size and abundance of cheap sniper spots that are impossible to see from afar. I'd suggest replacing it with cp_steel, which is by far the most beloved map in EU highlander matches.
It's true I swear

Glacier - good choice and great alternative to Gravelpit, but why include both? They play fairly similarily.

How about trying out cp_gydan instead of Gravelpit, a map used in ETF2L Highlander cups some years back?

Badwater and Gorge are great map picks, but Badlands doesn't play well in 9v9 at all. I'd suggest replacing Badlands with Freight in this case.

Finally, any chance of the EU conference playing two-map matches, as in other EU leagues? In my experience, Highlander matches played according to NA one-map rules tend to be over too quickly, often concluding faster than it took to get 18 players together.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

I agree with steel being out but

but

PLEASE change to warmfront

PLEASE

there is literally no downside

also, why no freight?

warclowd

Points: 1,402, Level: 22

Activity: 0%

Quoted for emphasis.

The rest of the maps look ok though. Badlands can be a little dry in 9's but powerful teamwork can overcome the stale mate nature of that map.

beef

Points: 1, Level: 1

Activity: 5.9%

Having played and won the 3rd place medal at the etf2l highlander challenge I think I know a thing or 2 about the game. The maplist is fairly good but I have some comments.

Upward/badwater/gravelpit worked very well in etf2l and should be locks here. So I'm happy to see them.

You should be very carefull about adding 5cp maps. A highlander team is by nature slower to react than a 6v6 team, making these maps much less dynamic, and really difficult to comeback after losing a midfight. I get that you want to attract comp players but when they see how poorly some of these play in 9v9 it might have the opposite effect.

Personally I wouldn't have badlands, the last point is even harder to push out from. Granary can work though I'm not a fan. And last coldfront, I've never played this map competitively so I dont have an opinion on it.

Viaduct isnt a bad map, but has little to offer in terms of strategical depth. Will often just by 9v9 deathmatch, but theres nothing wrong with that.

Gorge is a good map, I only played it once in a 7v7 and was much more fun than I thought it would be.

I dont know either glacier or lakeside, so no real opinions there.

The only map I'm sad to see missing is steel. Like everyone, I hated it at first. But once you know the ins and outs of this maps it becomes the very best map for highlander. It offers a ton of strategical choices and very dynamic gameplay.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

why no dustbowl?

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

A few condensed replies.

First, thanks a ton for all the participation and interest in this tournament! What makes this one so good, so unique is the feedback and interaction with the community; it's the reason I refer everyone to CommFT over other TF2 sites. On the flip side, when we make decisions, we run the risk of alienating those who feel invested, so if you're not happy about a decision , whether its maps or rules, let us know, but don't be surprised if we stick to our guns.

When it comes to coldfront, I've played a number of scrims on it--both in HL and 6s, and while I agree that the last point almost always stalemates for a final push, I've rarely had it go more than a few minutes. Stalemates are a concern for any 5 CP map (particularly small or narrow maps in HL), but both Graham and I are firm: coldfront stays.

If we go past week 10--and I doubt we will at this point, but who knows--Steel may be in the lineup. Heck, it might even be the championship map, but as of right now, it's not in the lineup.

We haven't locked down which version of glacier we're using, but we'll post that info in the very near future.

Dustbowl is not in the present line-up because we feel that it's terrible unhinged; pushing out of BLU spawn on round 3 is a nightmare against a team with solid defense and a nested Sentry.

From my HL experience, badlands doesn't stalemate nearly as often as people worry, but see previous comment regarding 5 CP maps and coldfront.

Lakeside works wonderfully for a HL map--it prioritizes Spy and Sniper, offers Scouts tons of room to operate, and offers Soldiers and Demos plenty of room to get creative with bombing-runs and jumps. In addition, the locus of map control is, in many ways, unique to TF2 maps in that much of the map's control relies on off-point area control/denial. I've played this one in HL a few times and it's a blast.

The current map order is an attempt to satisfy people who don't want to repeat map types back to back, hence the cp, koth, a/d, pl cycle we're using.

Thanks!

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

two quick replies:

1.) have you heard of cp_pro_dustbowl? it's just stages one and two of the map, and I think it works pretty well

2.) I understand having coldfront, but you still haven't explained why you're not using warmfront, which is better in every conceivable way

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

We haven't considered dustbowl pro, but at this point, it's not making the rotation. As for warmfront, I haven't played it yet (not sure if Graham has), so I'm not able to make a call on it, but coldfront is tried and true.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

allow me to explain the concept of warmfront- it is a reskin of coldfront that, due to lack of snow, gives VASTLY better fps

aside from that, the biggest change is that the left side when pushing into cp2 is slightly different

but really, the massive fps improvement is a godsend, particularly with 18 dudes running around

trust me, it's a must-use

TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

Literally that the fps increases due to a thematic switch from snow argument is the stupidest one. The second one is a fine reasoning, but the snow thematic literally would not reduce fps by a sizable margin, if you turned off weather effects. The difference in the dynamic texture proxies between snow and alpine is zero, and there wouldn't be any change. Well, actually, there is one small difference: The snow has a cubemap and bumpmap to it, which generally won't drop fps by much if by all. Now, there may have been some other optimization changes, but I have not decompiled both of them to see that. The snow texture argument however is a fallacy. So if it gives better FPS, I would guess its due to smarter areaportal usage and other optimization techniques, not due to a reskin, unless everyone's been playing with weather effects on.

/mapper rant I've been wanting to go off on

ANYWAYS, I like the map list, don't really care to go off on another tangent about any map, but I'm going out on a limb and saying that you should just go with rc6 or rc7 of glacier, whichever one is the most recent. I forget otherwise.

(And I can't wait for people to complain about glacier and want warmglacier)

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

you're probably right, but from the point of view of a competitive player I don't really care, if it has better fps it must be used

Hawkeye

Points: 5,566, Level: 51

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rc6 is the latest version of glacier, I have it downloaded to http://hsdl.matchmod.net in raw BSP and bzip2 formats if anyone once to grab it.

Just disable the weather effects and coldfront runs just fine. Warmfront is on the above site also.

Glacier and Gravelpit is surprising, pro_dustbowl would have been a better choice.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

gravelpit is a staple map of highlander and should never go away

I really do think pro_dustbowl should be considered though

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

Thanks for the clarification, TMP. Icarus himself discussed the weather effects and had them tuned to the player options in beta, so FPS on the map should not be a problem for ANY player capable of adjusting their options. Coldfront stays.

We're talking Glacier this week and will likely go with the most recent version unless there are significant (negative) gameplay differences.

ashkan

Points: 737, Level: 14

Activity: 0%

Dustbowl was the most disliked map in the HCC map pool. A lot of people absolutely hate it. Also, it's significantly longer than most maps.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

I have the weather effects turned off and use dx8 and chris' maxframes fps, and I get as low as 20 fps on coldfront highlander, it definitely isn't fixed

I understand people disliking dustbowl, but it's unfair to call it longer in pro_dustbowl form

Kelam

Points: 1, Level: 1

Activity: 5.9%

cp_steel is a very good map for highlander. Tons of different tactics on this map makes matches really dynamic and unpredictible. Please add it to the list instead one of 5cp maps.

shdw.puppet

Points: 3,599, Level: 39

Activity: 66.7%

coldfront is a bad, stalemate ridden, not particularly aesthetically pleasing map to begin with, warmfront did the equivalent of microwaving yesterday's terrible leftovers (still the same terrible crap, but maybe you added milk or something and it isnt quite so unbearable).

I have no fun on coldfront with 6 people per team, add 3 more and you are begging for games.that.never.end.

just my two cents, take em or leave em, I hear the pony rides outside of mejer still takes only a penny (with the benefit of offering up way more fun than a round of coldfront).

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

to continue the cliche, if you get two cents from like 50 people in this thread you'll have a whole dollar, and you can buy that shiny mouth harp in the woolworth's window!

north

Points: 133, Level: 2

Activity: 50.0%

Regardless of fps issues, warmfront has a handful of very minor changes that make a good difference in speeding up the general back and forth of the map. It's still an awful map, but there's absolutely no solid argument in favour of coldfront - everything it does, warmfront does better!

And then there's still the horrible fps issues which affect most people regardless of weather effects on or off :v

Biz

Points: 3, Level: 1

Activity: 11.8%

is cp_gorge the new 5 point cap gorge? If so, that map is really bad. Way to much walking and not enough shooting :)

Lutraphobia

Points: 2,314, Level: 31

Activity: 25.0%

cp_gorge is the original attack/defend version. cp_5gorge is the new 5cp version. I'm not a huge fan of either version but tbh this is probably mostly because I've had bad luck with team balance whenever I've tried the map before.


I play quite a lot of Coldfront and Warmfront I actually quite enjoy playing on the map. I don't have any preference between the two which means that 9 times out of 10 I'd pick Warmfront over Coldfront. I'd do this because of the performance issues that some people suffer with Coldfront (I've never had any problems myself even on my shitty old laptop) but primarily because Warmfront is becoming the new competitive standard. IIRC it's Warmfront not Coldfront that's made the ETF2L rotation this coming season.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

yep, the only reason not to use warmfront is

just kidding, there is no reason

admins, please dont be badmins

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

It would be "badmin" to change map rotation at this point; we're going into week 2 of pre-season, and negating the practice teams have already put into coldfront would not be cool. While I sympathize with players who have FPS problems on coldfront (I don't, though I do have those problems on sawmill), it's a playable map, even if it requires turning down the graphics for some.

Coldfront is a competitive standard at this point. Warmfront doesn't have the same testing in leagues and tourneys. The rotation stands.

shdw.puppet

Points: 3,599, Level: 39

Activity: 66.7%

I literally sobbed for a good 5 minutes ;~;

Graham

Points: 87,431, Level: 100

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No need for crying, Free is correct.