shdw.puppet

Points: 3,599, Level: 39

Activity: 66.7%

that is why I am crying

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

koth_sawmill is also pretty standard in such highlander events, but I don't see it on the map list

is it possible that you're biased towards problems that you can experience as well?

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

No, considering I have severe FPS issues on viaduct, week two.

Maps are locked.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

sorry if I came off as a douche in this thread, I just have an extreme visceral aversion to coldfront

Emberstrife

Points: 180, Level: 3

Activity: 25.0%

Viaduct is popular as a highlander map only due to it's unique layout and fun gameplay. If someone were to retexture Viaduct and manage to improve performance while leaving gameplay unchanged, the retextured version would be adopted in a heartbeat.

Warmfront wasn't picked up by american leagues because it was released mid-season. ETF2L officially chose Warmfront over Coldfront for Season 9, a decision met with much appraisal, and Wireplay allowed teams to play their remaining Coldfront games on Warmfront should they choose to do so. If that's not official league approval then I don't know what it is.

It's literally *the same map* with small, mostly cosmetic changes. You cannot argue that teams would need to "learn" or "adapt their strategies" to the same map with a different texture set.

I'm sure that if a poll were made, the general public would support Warmfront instead.

ymmud

Points: 1,791, Level: 25

Activity: 25.0%

there's no reason for not switching to warmfront besides the fact that you have to admit you are wrong
tl;dr stubborn admins like in ETF2L, well played at giving off a bad image which will make a lot of EU players shy away from this; noone enjoyed RaCio's stubborness on the ETF2L forums /IRC channel

TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

With all of this hell surrounding week 1's map, I personally can't wait until week 7.

Graham

Points: 87,431, Level: 100

Activity: 8.3%

It's not a stubbornness or an unwillingness to admit of wrongdoing that is at play here...

All that's been said is that the difference between the two maps doesn't merit a change in the rotation because we aren't catering to certain player's FPS issues and because people are most comfortable with cp_coldfront. People are acting (in this thread only, mind you), that this is reflective of bad admins or giving a bad image to the tournament. That's outrageous and clearly not the case. It's a single map of the rotation, and one that is played in all of the leagues, for fuck's sake.

If the players were to wholesale agitate in favor of cp_warmfront, we could switch to it. As it is, there are like 5 of you (with mustardoverlord sustaining most of the debate with silly comments). The fact is that most people do not care like you guys do - that, almost by definition, implies that we do not have a bad image as a consequence of the standing map rotation.

pala4

Points: 252, Level: 5

Activity: 83.3%

warmfront is played in the biggest european league (ETF2L)
my team would prefer to play it too :)

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

1. Why shouldn't you cater to certain player's FPS issues? It's clearly a lot of people suffering, not just me.

2. Presumably the answer to the previous is the aforementioned coldfront comfort level, but as people have pointed out, warmfront is VERY similar. Besides, "comfort" is too strong a term, because most people aren't particularly comfortable on coldfront :P

3. "In this thread only, mind you"- where else would we talk about maps in the tournament?

4. "One that is played in all of the leagues"- First off, as someone pointed out, that is not the case in Europe, and considering a big portion of this tournament is European teams, that's a big deal (there should also be a euro admin probably, but whatevs). Second of all, it may be in most leagues, but I've been hard-pressed trying to find a person in esea who actually likes it- hell, read my interview series on eseanews (SHAMELESS PLUG), like every player bashes it.

5. There are only like 5 people against the map because only like 5 people are posting here to begin with- it's mostly just like the nerdiest 10% of the team captains. That being said, I don't think I've seen many people posting here IN SUPPORT of coldfront, which I think makes this a decent enough sample size to judge that warmfront wouldn't be an unwelcome addition.

tl;dr: I think a lot of people don't like coldfront and would prefer a switch, and warmfront ain't so different that people will have to relearn an entirely new map (hell, most teams push in to 2nd on left side, which is now pretty drastically easier to do, so teams should enjoy it more).

Hell, if you wanna do a compromise, use warmfront in the EU division and coldfront in NA. If you're gonna go off of comfort zones, that's just common sense

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

1. Because out of the 250+ players registered for this tournament, very few have raised the issue, and fewer, I'll wager, actually have significant problems that can't be addressed by tweaking settings. However, the concerns of a few players--and you'll note that though I have major FPS issues on Viaduct (and Obscure, for what it's worth), I'm not pushing for a change--are not, as Graham pointed out, the point.

2. While warmfront is very similar, there are changes to the map that have yet to be put through the ringer of multiple seasons in multiple competitive leagues. Coldfront remains a solid 5 cp map and a staple of tournaments and leagues.

3. Point taken.

4. We're not running different maps for different conferences.

5. You just have. While I understand your points and concerns, I'm going to ask that you please drop it to avoid more conflict. Graham and I are sticking to our decision. Coldfront stays.

Basic

Points: 1,026, Level: 18

Activity: 0%

can't believe there's no ctf_turbine

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

Would have liked the new pro version, but it didn't make the cut.

Emberstrife

Points: 180, Level: 3

Activity: 25.0%

A rather important question I haven't seen answered, will the matches be BO1 or BO3?
(one map per match or two with possible tiebreaker)

One-map highlander matches often take more time to organize than to actually play, which kinda sucks - especially if screwing up one map immediately knocks you down into the loser bracket. In a BO3 setup, one of the maps could overlap between weeks so teams wouldn't have to practice for too many maps at a time.

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

It's one map per match, though the tournament is double elimination. Detailed rules can be found here.

Graham

Points: 87,431, Level: 100

Activity: 8.3%

Yea we aren't doing BO3 for a number of reasons but most importantly because it takes too long and people have trouble scheduling one match as it is.

GiantKiwi

Points: 63, Level: 1

Activity: 63.6%

So for another point of reason, in my case every map on tf2 (including warmfront) i get an avg beyond the stock max fps (299+), but because of numerous issues on coldfront namely external textures not relevant to the actual game (ie outside of play area, external draw distance etc) i will get an absolute maximum of 55fps on coldfront, with an avg of 45fps.

Warmfront is a better version, theres no real dispute to it, so what if coldfront is an official, doesnt mean its well made (refer to halloween HHH map, which made almost everyones computers lag with servers of more than 24 players).

And in this case my computer is not to blame, as the spec would make most peoples eyes bleed.

Daystar

Points: 930, Level: 17

Activity: 75.0%

I think Coldfront's prettier than Warmfront. Hehe. Anyway, the gameplay changes are definitely positive but not big enough to make a fuss over. Oh, and if you want one advantage of using Coldfront... it's an official TF2 map, not a custom one that anyone has to find and download. Less hassle.

Anyway, myself and a teammate got some guys to run around Glacier (rc6) earlier, and I have to admit I'm excited. A beautiful map which is similar enough to Gravelpit to understand, but obviously is very different strategically/capture-point-wise. I can't wait for the shitstorm of rage about performance because of how beautiful a map it is...

Of course Steel would be nice, I'm not so sure about the quantity of 5CP maps either, and more PL would be appreciated, but there's no problem. This will be a good map rotation overall.

^.^