fluffyanimals

Points: 313, Level: 6

Activity: 21.2%

[This is a repost of the thread under "Site Stuff" since I wasn't sure who to contact to get that thread moved. It's also at a relatively low post count right now so I'll copy-paste the important stuff.]

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This has been posted on Got Frag so I thought I'd post roughly the same thing here (in hopes of getting in contact with jinn more easily). I'm no coder but these are just some ideas.

If you can try to talk to FLOOR_MASTER and Cinq (if you can get a hold of them) and see if there's some way to integrate pug.na and TF2Lobby into this more easily. Given, there's already some integration just by linking to TF2Lobby but if CommFT could start out running small non-stop weekend tournaments using TF2Lobby it could start getting somewhere, and with all of the stat-tracking, password protected lobbies, etc., it'd be easier to get matches setup with teams, make sure everyone is ready, verify results, and all that jazz.

Think of it this way, if there were some features added to Lobby then pug.na could essentially get integrated straight into that (or at least partially integrated for a start, depending on whether Cinq is interested or not as well as FLOOR_MASTER). If CommFT could run it's own small free tourneys with TF2Lobby integrated into it with a tourney-side portion of the site then it could expand into a larger tournament and start getting more teams and new players overall. Like someone on Got Frag suggested it could eventually get to the point of having a free portion but then maybe also a Premium tourney that costs money but has a decent prize for top teams (a la CEVO or ESEA depending on how large it could get).

This isn't something that would be expected to happen immediately but with so many resources out there that are all split it the community could greatly benefit if all of these could be put centralized and we'd probably see larger tournaments with more divisions instead of TWL, UGC, CEVO, ESEA, TGL, and CAL (when it still existed). Instead of having all of these leagues and dividing up the community into lots of small portions we as the community should make an effort to get everyone together in the a larger overall league with more divisions that could expand over time to be comparable to things like CEVO and ESEA, and perhaps try for some support from Valve and other sponsors to encourage participation.

Along with this if CommFT gets some of what MGE has going then they'll become more like direct competitors except without the premium fee for the content from CommFT (assuming enough high-level players are willing to contribute their two cents). But outside of that we should honestly just allow that information to be publicly accessible in the first place. Get some reviews of what's going on in playoffs matches, get in-depth analysis, the whole shebang.

Not suggesting that any of this is a "ZOMG LET'S DO THIS OVERNIGHT" kind of thing but I think that many of the goals wouldn't be bad to work towards if feasible. If these kinds of things can get done then we can see the NA TF2 scene become much stronger, more solidified and more centralized as well as bringing in more new players that aren't searching around for this league or that league while having lots of resources at their finger tips to help them learn about what's going on, improve their own skills, and overall just benefit the community so that we see more than a tiny division of Invite teams each season.

Many of us in the community have voiced our opinions talking about how we'd like to see these kinds of things happen but no one has actually done anything about it so I suggest that we formulate a game plan and get the ball rolling.

*While I can't code to save my life, I am willing to put forth some time and effort to help out with whatever I can because I'd like to see some of these things happen if possible.

*http://steamcommunity.com/id/fluffyanimals <-- if you need to contact me directly
*Noticed my overuse of the word "integrated." Sorry for the poor writing.

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*A small omission was made from Falco's post where the [....] is.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

Activity: 18.2%

I'm not sure if starting from scratch is as necessary anymore. With TWL's decline CEVO is becoming the de facto league for lower teams. I hope in future seasons the skill divisions can be refined, but it can accomodate everyone.

However, I don't know the extent of Graham's power, if he can integrate features like tf2lobby stats and things like that into CEVO, cause CEVO is a company in the end and they probably want to keep everything on their site.

I think a safe idea for now is to use this idea to start up a highlander league. ETF2L's league is so successful it has like 20+ american teams signed up.

And like it was mentioned on gotfrag, someone who can program needs to volunteer and make this happen. In a video game community there's got to be at least a few web programmers capable of doing this.

No matter what, clearly there is a problem with having TGL, TWL, UGC, CEVO, all these different places.

At best, we could have one league. But seeing as having ESEA won't make that possible, ESEA and CEVO is probably the best outlet we have at the moment.

Graham

Points: 87,431, Level: 100

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I removed the other thread. Let's keep this in General to get people talking about it.


I have talked to Cinq a lot about integration with #tf2.pug.na and the best we can do at this point is having an IRC client integrated in the site (we even had this for a long time but it really wasn't used that much - and it would be useless now that people have to be auth'd to play). It's my opinion that #tf2.pug.na should remain as a venue for competitive players who want to play serious pugs when they are not scrimming. Since CommFT tries to help newer players in addition to the veterans, the target audience of the channel is narrower than CommFT's.

So I definitely think that TF2Lobby would be the best option for this sort of endeavor. I have been wanting to get with them for a while to work on some sort of integration but we could always run tournaments with links to the appropriate pages on their site (without integrating). The latter option is perfectly fine with me but I just don't have time to take on another TF2-related project. If someone stepped up to organize it all, I'd be down for it. I'm down for whatever as everyone knows who has talked to me.

Definitely.

Added.

Sounds good to me. For the time being, I remain in my position at CEVO but I could still support a community effort (at CommFT or otherwise...although I think a CommFT/TF2Lobby combo is the best option) with all of my resources.

True.

In short, CEVO isn't interested. It's a complex topic and I am also not at liberty to discuss some of the related aspects of CEVO.

I have been spreading the idea that we will run a highlander tournament soon but I need someone to operate it. As I have mentioned before, I just don't have time. If someone steps up, we could make the CommFT HL event the first CommFT/TF2Lobby combo event. It's just with CommFT, CEVO, my own team, college, etc I just can't take on every project the community wants to get done.

falkflyer

Points: 1,189, Level: 19

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My post was taken completely out of context. Here's the MAJOR omission that he's embarrassed about because it's true.



Also, I've been talking to jinn about this whole league system. I've got some solid experience working with this stuff, so if anybody else is good at building web applications, please contact me. I hope to use Django, as it makes things stupid simple.

__________________
-tC

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

Activity: 18.2%

Depending what you need done, I can do something, I have man-hours to waste

fluffyanimals

Points: 313, Level: 6

Activity: 21.2%

It seems like there's been support for these ideas coming in from quite a few people (talked to Papa and Pingu among others) and I've been talking to Falco a lot about what he's doing. Once I'm not on the road in a few days I'll have better availability again and will continue talking to people about what needs to get done, who can do it, how to solve these problems, etc., and we can try to start coming up with an actual time frame for everything.

-fine

Points: 847, Level: 16

Activity: 0%

I like the idea

Graham

Points: 87,431, Level: 100

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Sounds good to me fluffy. As I told Falco...tell me what you need on my end and I'll get it for you.

Hawkeye

Points: 5,566, Level: 51

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Here is a list of exactly what needs to be done:

1. Rules and Format
2. Server Configs
3. If Rules/Server need it talk with floor about modifying lobby
4. Some level of AC Client
5. Central Server to create teams/schedule matches
6. Repository for .dem of Matches and POV demos

Rules and Format of the matches were being discussed in the threads I created

Server Configs need to be built to correlate to the rules

If we want 2 halfs on a single map, We will need to talk to Floor to get the lobby updated

Otherwise, it can happen without the need to modify something on Floors end for the most part, unless we want to collect stats in a match setting.

AC Client, to be honest, as far as TF2 none have really ever proved to me they have done a damn thing besides the casual hacker. Kigen's AC has found a lot more then any of the AC Clients I have used.

Last thing is the central server for Teams/SteamIDs and so forth.

Auto-upload of the .dem files, I had a programmer taking a look at writing something at the metamod level. I'll ping him and see where it was left off.

The website for match scheduling and team stuff is really the key and all we need. If we want to run it like a ladder or league would need to be decided. I think a ladder would be more fun to honest to get new teams coming in and easily finding matches at low levels.

Hint: XPL's entire format was designed around the ability to use the lobby.

MjrNuT

Points: 1,634, Level: 24

Activity: 0%

I'm trying to undestand what greater benefit the OP is stating with regards of integrating features to CommFT. I pick up several things and frankly it states no clear objective and/or purpose. At best, I can infer based on my own knowledge of the mentioned leagues, scrim channels, and website features.

Here is what I pickup:

1. Make one entire league to swallow up CEVO, TWL, TGL, ESEA, etc. based on central or single point of reference and to standardize skill levels.

2. Integrate IRC channels and TF2Lobby.com for the purpose of one stop shop to get matches, PuGs, etc. and include stat tracking, respectively.

3. Conduct CommFT sponsored tournaments/league.

4. Scope of audience would be all competitive interested players, or more simply broken into -- Veterans and Scrubs


With that I'm trying to understand how this would benefit the Scope, Core, Purpose of CommunityFortress.com. Here is my input, if you don't mind, as I feel the OP is very worthy of the effort, but lacks refining -- why?


I like the fact that CommunityFortress.com is basically a neutral ground amongst all the Competitive Host Sites. I believe this makes a large difference with regard to input, feedback, and therefore actions (proactive and not) with each of those Sites. Honestly, I don't seen any benefit of creating some master, be all in one, type league anchored at CommFT. I don't think it to be ideal at all and would really detract from CommFT's purpose, which is one of being an educator, resource, and coming-of-age for Scrubs, type site firstly. Secondly, for the Veterans refine themselves, give back to the community by Mentoring, and providing insight at those upper levels on what the real deal is up there.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is/was the reason for CommFT...to have a collaboration of competitive TF2.


As with all stores, they live and die by their patrons. Incentives, programs, advertising, etc. are all things that gain the attention patrons with the goal of loyalty. That loyalty is what keeps the store/league around and continuing. I don't see any benefit in trying to take away players from those existing leagues. They are all option for everyone and actually benefit the Community as whole since they provide some coinciding/overlapping venues of participation (schedule). Evidence currently with UGC started a couple weeks ago, CEVO this week, TWL coming soon, TGL coming soon. No matter how elitest you are...they are all venues for any player to go and Git R Dun. The point being to increase the pool of Scrubs.

CommFT is the perfect place to advertise and announce those venues. To provide the OPTIONS to the Community. That is probably the single most valuable commodity of CommFT.


2. Appears that the IRC thing has been addressed, so I'll leave that alone. TF2Lobby.com....again, what about it is desired to be integrated to the CommFT site? A link direct to the site? To reflect stats of players as connected to accounts here on the site? To display certain content from TF2Lobby.com? To stream current Lobbies, players, etc.? With all that....how much would require the owner to be involved, assuming they are available and willing? Judging by the replies here and elsewhere it seems the owner Floor Master is difficult to contact. I know his activity on SM forums has gone to near zilch.


I could easily see a Page of Content dedicated to TF2Lobby.com here on CommFT. Encouraging its use and practicality. It's target audience, it's pros/cons, etc. It's a useful tool, even though people will cite X number of Lobbies only to be shot down by someone saying it doesn't mean squat....is contracdictory. Playing in a Lobby is beneficial to a Scrub and not a Veteran, I think we can agree on that.

I would think it can be possible to integrate a TF2Lobby badge to accounts here on CommFT much like integrating SteamProfile Status into the Postbit of the vB forums here. I have the latter on my site.


3. Graham has addressed this, which requires a person or group to plan and put together a Tournament (my preference for starters). These tournaments would be great signature pieces for CommFT. Short duration and possibly request servers from the Community!!!


4. Just something simple to show the potential audience of CommFT.



I can help with some simple vB forum integrations:

1. SteamId input for each user.
2. SteamProfile STatus in Postbit
3. Content Embedding (i.e., Youtube)

I also have access to vB custom programmers/plugin makers/etc. I'd be happy to discuss offline/voice etc. with Graham or the powers of CommFT.

I hope my post was contributing.

__________________
MjrNuT
Flames and Ash Gaming

Graham

Points: 87,431, Level: 100

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Hit me up.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

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basically, we need to be exactly like etf2l only with a head admin who doesn't fight with the players so much

Graham

Points: 87,431, Level: 100

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I wouldn't go so far as to say this endeavor should copy any of the current leagues. All of them can be improved upon.

falkflyer

Points: 1,189, Level: 19

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I disagree, MjrNuT. I never really checked up on this site too often, but it's turning into a wonderful source of news as well as education. I feel this could turn into a central hub for the entire TF2 community. With information on everything happening, a dedicated team of people writing articles and making videos, and the fact that the site is devoted solely to TF2, it only seems right that it becomes something more integrated with the community and the game. Adding a CommFT-run league and such could only improve the community's growth.

The only thing I worry about is that, as fluffy said, there are already a ton of leagues. Why should we bother making another for the purpose of reducing that number?

__________________
-tC

MjrNuT

Points: 1,634, Level: 24

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You pretty much agreed with what I dispelled in my wallotxt.

While I'm not completely opposed to a CommFT effort League, it is not without it's significant overhead. Looking back at the previous articles (Schetter) on topics (Part I, II, III) regarding some central League/players union/etc., garnered lots of discussion but no inkling of rumored action. Or I've just missed it completely.

I think a CommFT Tournie would be a great start if there was to be a break in.

__________________
MjrNuT
Flames and Ash Gaming

Hawkeye

Points: 5,566, Level: 51

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As far as Schetter's work, I have everything basically mapped out, but was curious to see how many others would step up and offer to assist. The response there has, well frankly, been vastly underwhelming. So I ceased efforts for the most part (boring sitting in Mumble yourself)

I did get some good discussions on the forums about match formats and so forth.

I still think a NA Ladder would be a solid way to get teams in and trying to improve (low-low/mid levels) it could be made more interesting if leagues would draw from the ladder to populate the divisions and so forth. For example if CEVO-A does skill divisions, they could take the ladder ranks to see the divisions and so forth. It be a good way to get actual matches accomplish with similar skilled teams as they try to push there way up the ladder. I realize a lot of teams/players laugh at ladders, but they do serve a pretty good purpose for bringing new teams into the fold.

Also the calling all coders thread just to set the backend up, got a couple responses, but that is about it.

Kermit

Points: 2,823, Level: 34

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I think it would be a good idea, just because there are a lot of people who Lobby that aren't necessarily on teams or don't actually play in leagues. If there was a way to integrate Lobby so that it'd be easy for people to join the league (whatever the league will be called), then you'd probably increase the number of teams in TF2 exponentially. Of course it could go further than that, with easier ways to find players looking or recruit people (all through the site) then that'd help a lot as well.

But then again, this is all a pipedream at this point.

Hawkeye

Points: 5,566, Level: 51

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The real holdup with the lobby is Floor at the moment, he can get a lot of help, but I haven't seen him engage anyone directly. I spoke with -Flame and Mangy a bit about the plans when XPL was starting up.

I'd like to add lobby but right now I don't have any way to further things on that front or talk to floor and see what is feasible and time frames and if he is interested in it. I'd love to get something going, but I don't have the time right now to re-code a full stats package capable of collecting data across leagues and seasons.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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Someone should try to contact casey, who made tf2demos.com.

I don't expect him to do it for free because it's probably a lot of work. Donations?

MjrNuT

Points: 1,634, Level: 24

Activity: 0%

How about something simple that might diminish commitments, if that is the hold up, is to get a link or page of CommFT on TF2Lobby. Some branding goes a long way.

Can there just be a simple affiliation at this point? Something to start since this thread, I would have thought might be more active. Or all of you are just too darn busy playing in matches, getting ready for school, or working your bum off. :P

Hawkeye, I'd be interested in what kind of Road Map(s) you've got, if your interested in sharing. Frankly, I'd like to see MatchMod become more advertised around, which can fall under this thread scope, but also separately.

__________________
MjrNuT
Flames and Ash Gaming

Hawkeye

Points: 5,566, Level: 51

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Mainly tweaks at the moment, If I had time I would build a backend for Player Authentication and so forth, but being out fo town 4 days a week has really cramped my time.

ymmud

Points: 1,791, Level: 25

Activity: 25.0%

not sure what is or are the big problem(s) with a user run league, early on when it was a bit harder ETF2L was created :x

fluffyanimals

Points: 313, Level: 6

Activity: 21.2%

Sorry I've been away from this thread but this is an excellent idea if someone can try to get a hold of floormaster. This would probably go a long ways in helping promote Community Fortress initially and then if possible we could go from there to try for some small weekend tourneys through a match mod, etc. as things got worked out. I'll address some of the other questions in this thread a bit later when I have time but I think that getting a link to CommFT on TF2Lobby would be extremely helpful as a starting point.

Nightbox

Points: 1,482, Level: 22

Activity: 99.0%

TF2Lobby is only for players that just started competitive TF2. Having some competitive experience will show you how bad is.

About admins... You could see FLOOR interest by also me, being the only one banned in TF2Lobby (yeah, cheaters, rqs, other kind->free). + I will receive a community weapon soon.

I have not come here for complainings. In the summer beggining I have been working on a project called TF2 Matchmaking.

Coder quit so I was not able to continue it.

Impressions on ETF2L.

Yesterday talked with Hawkeye and he is very intrested, I hope we can revive this project for the good of community :)

PS: I'm not american.

TheGooglePlex!

Points: 309, Level: 6

Activity: 60.6%

On the technical side of running a league, look at http://www.ozfortress.com/

They use vB as well.

HeleneB

Points: 917, Level: 17

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Seeing MGE's rise and hearing about this makes me wonder if these people in charge of creating something big understands or not that America does not have a good TF2 league yet. We need an ETF2L in America. There is a reason why it is so successful there and here we aren't at all. I'm no expert but you guys are. Make something awesome happen :)

__________________

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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Couple of ?'s

1) Who's in charge of this effort
2) What progress has been made
3) What needs to be done
4) What people can do to help

fluffyanimals

Points: 313, Level: 6

Activity: 21.2%

1) Me, Falco, Jinn
Pingu and Papa Smurf (to some extent since they're interested in it and have provided ideas, feedback and some work) + anyone here at Community Fortress that has talked about it but predominately Falco (-tC), Jinn and I so far with some extraneous help here and there

2) So far (to the best of my knowledge) some coding has been done on the part of trying to help get it organized in terms of making a league, having players be able to sign up for it, form teams, etc. However, there's still been a block with nothing from Floormaster (unless someone here can contact him) and we're currently in the process of just trying to get some basic affiliation between TF2 and Community Fortress. If we can get that done then we can move on to things such as small, quick, weekend tourneys using TF2Lobby, try to get some integration regarding stats and leagues going, etc. A lot of other stuff comes later but without anything from Floor we're still stuck at somewhat of a standstill.

3)
- a) Contact Floormaster
- b) Get some affiliation between TF2Lobby and Community Fortress going
- c) Following (a) and (b) get Lobby setup with CommFT to some extent and do testing
- d) More complex stuff that follows (a), (b), and (c)

4) If you know Floor, contact him, get him in touch with the rest of us here, get him in touch with Jinn, with me, and then we can discuss plans past that on how to get things done. After that we'd need testing with integrated features and we can go from there. This point will be updated in future posts as progress actually gets made trying to contact Floor and any other heads of TF2Lobby that we can.
Possible Contacts (as provided on Lobby's "About" page): FLOOR_MASTER, Mangy Carface, Nineaxis <-- help look into these and see what we can get done. If anyone knows them message them and direct them here.

pingu

Points: 704, Level: 14

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So, I only just noticed this thread and even though Fluffy mentioned me a few times, he didn't say much.

I've already registered natf2l.com and natf2l.org. I believe Cinq has registered tf2l.org but wants no part of the project until ESEA drops TF2. I've been coding this week and have already made some headway, but I'm not sure if Fluffy was talking about my progress.

I'm using Ruby on Rails for various reasons; I'm sure others will object. I've done users, login, teams, joining teams, events, and subevents. Now I just need to add a few types of subevents (league, tournament, etc) and create the logic. There is still a lot of work to be done, and everything I've done constitutes the back-end with little or no front-end.

Some people may not know me, which is completely acceptable. I've coded and administered a successful league for another game and have worked on a lot of higher profile websites since (largest of which had 1.5M impressions per day). All of these sites have been made in PHP, but I've learned to hate the language and won't be using it.

This is the part where I lose all credibility, but fuck tf2lobby. Floor won't hand over his code, especially if you can't even contact the guy. And even if he did, it would probably be a pain to integrate and Floor won't offer his assistance. The better idea is to think more about integrating MatchMod and doing stats the ESEA way.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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Good luck pingu

As for cinq, I think it's clear at this point that ESEA does not intend to drop tf2 and it will remain around. Not sure what kind of grudge he has against ESEA but if he does have one then I think he is misconstruing the purpose of NATF2L. It's not to compete against ESEA, it's to provide a central, FREE, league/web site for all tiers of TF2.

The problem that I believe we're trying to address is the fact that we have TGL, TWL, CEVO, UGC, gotfrag, mygamingedge, commft - the community is scattered everywhere. If we could consolidate TF2 into only NATF2L and ESEA then I think that would be sufficient.

If no one can contact floor master and its clear he has no intent on helping, then natf2l ought to move on without him.