Hawkeye

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What I want to talk about here, is with all the new CVARs and the various formats for Competitive 6v6 gameplay, what is everyone wanting to give a shot?

Lets keep this about Push format only for a moment

• CEVO/ESEA - 2x 30 minute halfs, First to 4 causes half, 5 to win
• TWL - 2x 20 minute halfs, first to 4 causes half, first to 6 wins.
• XPL - 30 minutes or a team is 5caps ahead

With the new CVAR Valve dropped in for us, we now have this option

• Experiment - First to 4 but require 2 caps ahead to win (think volleyball/tennis)

What I want everyone to take into consideration before responding:

• Easy for players to execute
• Easy to get through a match by rule
• Ensure games are fun, but not to long

GooB

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This looks interesting and still should be at least experimented with but it looks iffy. It makes it so that teams might only have 1 round to find out what the other team is doing and they have to fix that before the second round is over. Not only that but this makes games shorter D:.

jiggawhat

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I like this one. Sometimes its important to have a break so I don't agree with first to 4.

"2x 20 minute halfs, first to 4 causes half, first to 5 wins"

(except 5 wins, not 6)

Something shorter like this might even allow best of 5 finals, because we actually now have 5 good maps (gpit, gran, bad, gully, viaduct or yukon)

ranga

Points: 567, Level: 11

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I believe it is first to 4, but you have to win by 2. Not just be ahead by 2 rounds from the beginning.

bcarr

Points: 410, Level: 8

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I disagree with this idea, because another sport's already using a version of this rule…

Alis1337

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I've always wondered by half was first to 4 instead of 3 which makes a lot more sense.

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improperdancing

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How about merging the formats? Do the XPL-style two maps per week and first to five (win by two?), but then take the TWL 20-minute timer.

Sway

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Anyone remember the 8 hour tennis match? That's why that new cvar alone is a bad idea. But give the game a 30 minute max, and I think it might be a good solution. First to 4, but have to win by minimum of 2, match ends after 30 minutes. I like it.

defiance

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The xpl/euro format is dumb. Keep with the ESEA/CEVO/TWL(kinda) format. If anybody watched nxzl vs vg the other day, they'd know that the game wouldn't have been nearly as awesome if esea was using the xpl/euro style.

That was my biggest problem with XPL, they were trying to fix something that wasn't broken. Two 30 minute halves makes for an amazing game to watch.

The format of how matches are played isn't a big problem in tf2 at all, I don't see a reason for changing it, especially for the worse.

Hawkeye

Points: 3,886, Level: 41

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The vast majority of matches played, the second half is simply a formality, and since the majority of the maps are mirrored, it doesn't make a that much of a difference.

Plus it adds a quite a bit of hassle to a match that is for the most part unnecessary most of the time, and quite a few teams just skip it completely.

Don't let the exception define the rule.

shdw.puppet

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I have always thought it mental that it was first to 4 then half

it should be 2 30min halves.

First half first to three or 20min switch
Second Half first to 5 or 20 min end
if scores are tied at end of 40 minutes - 2 10 minute halves, most points at end wins
if still tied - golden cap

just my thought, but even keeping the current format and making the half at 3 instead of 4 would make the second half more relevant.

Fish #641

Points: 3,309, Level: 37

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I find halves to be more frustrating than anything. A lot of it is spent just sitting around with all 12 players capable of playing, but not doing anything. However, I think that the time between rounds should be extended.

wanderrful

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i like this, but then again i'm a soccer player
one change imo though: i think 2 20 minute halves would be better.


that's true - you do have 12 players capable of playing... but the reason for having halves is so that you can get a break from the chaos and have time to sit down with your team and talk about what's happening to either break the streak or continue it. it's also a rest.

if people playing don't take advantage of that chance to change gears and start fresh, then they need to rethink their strategies... in which case they should be given some time between rounds to think of one.... call it halftime. it'll give losing teams a chance to reorganize!

shdw.puppet

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ya, it is 20 minutes in one part of my plan and 30 in another, I decided on 20 after I wrote it out but didnt edit it out on top...

wanderrful

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wanderrful

Points: 5,158, Level: 49

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I remember seeing a talking point in a forum somewhere a long time ago saying that because of the reduced 20 minute per half thing, teams can strategize to turtle up and prevent the other side from winning.

In response to that, I think I am all for it... but it'd make the final scores more interesting and have less 5's.

Sway

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I gotta disagree. I hate playing in games where massive turtling is going on, and I hate watching them even more. Nothing is more boring than watching ubers fail against sentry/choke defenses, only for the defending team to not bother pushing to avoid getting backcapped.

wanderrful

Points: 5,158, Level: 49

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yes yes yes i agree with that

however if its 20 minutes instead of 30 minutes, any turtling will be shorter lived than if it were to happen in a 30 minute game.

sure its harder to appreciate people who play defense because they work hard to stop everyone from giving the crowd what they want, but i really don't think that turtling will be any more prominent a strategy than it is now.

the only point i wanted to make on that is that by having 20 minute halves you'd be more likely to see matches that don't include the number 5... that's all.

Hawkeye

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Actually the entire concept of Halfs in TF2 was a throwback to games where it was required, I.E. Counter Strike.. The point of halfs in any sport is to ensure fair competition being wind in football, 2 halfs to an inning in baseball and so forth.

Since TF2 Push/Koth maps are largely played on Mirrored geometry, the actual need for a half really isn't compelling to me to bother with it anymore and adding the hassle to a match. It would make more sense to have the bonusroundtime increased from 10 to say 20-30 to allow teams to get through things and make the changes necessary. Then just play a match with somewhere between 20-30 minutes as the cutoff.

The only maps where color made a difference for the most part got fixed (Granary, cp_well with the light etc) So it's mostly inertia that it still exists at all. As evidenced by the VAST majority of the matches, the second half not making any real difference whatsoever. (A few exceptions exists, but again, that is the exception and not the norm).

shdw.puppet

Points: 1,967, Level: 27

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That is largely because of the fact that the first half is played to 4. When a match is 4/5ths over by the time a half rolls around... you have a problem.

The halves are more than a side switch, I know my team talks during that time and discusses what worked, what didnt, etc. That half time break (plus the need for me to go take a pee break because of all the coffee I drink during matches) is important to a lot of different strategies. And not everything is fair in the real of TF2, just on granary, the blue side has both the cones (dont laugh, a team I was on actually used them to get a demoman to pop stickies once, just for teh lulz) and the hubcap on the wall next to Z on second point has become a popular demo sticky spot. Blu side has it filled in, so it is easier to hide stickies than red. Nit Picky I know, but still.

There are two solutions that I like, (assuming we keep halves) the solution I posted above (2 20min halves switch at 3 if tied, two 10 min tiebreaker halves then golden cap) and something more akin to traditional sports where there is a set time limit (2 30 min halves?) and the team with the most points at the end of the 60 minutes wins.

Also, small little thing that is waaaay nit picky. The only comp map I can think of that uses reflection symmetry is viaduct. gran and blands at least practice rotational symmetry. just sayin n.n

Hawkeye

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The issue I have with the overtime being an additional two halfs is it will simply wear on a team.. A golden cap for OT is fine.

Also, if we do to Halves (which i personally do not like honestly since I think its mostly a waste) 20 minutes is fine, if there is no cap limit, I would drop it down to 15 minutes per half honestly, a single map taking an hour to me is simply ridiculous considering there is no real "professional" in the sport and we are taking time away from players lives.

So with Cap limits, two 20 minute period with half triggered by max caps/2 (6 max, so 3)

Or No cap limit, Two 15 minute periods.

If we increased the between round (bonustime which is currently 10 in most configs) that could accomplish quite a bit and make each round more interesting anegating the need for a half.

Fish #641

Points: 3,309, Level: 37

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In all of my time in TF2, we really only ever used like 30-60 seconds max to discuss strategies during half. And most of that would have been more useful just sprinkled through extended time between rounds (changing setups, discussing mid fight, etc.).

wanderrful

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we're all saying the same thing.

giving more time between rounds is equivalent to keeping the time between the halves, even if the place where the half occurs happens is moved.

also, as a commentator, its sometimes confusing to see teams switch colors. i'm all for keeping team colors the same on push maps.

Fish #641

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Yeah I think we're all in agreement that there needs to be time to discuss and create/modify strategies. I just want to emphasize that I believe between rounds is more important than after a 4-0 roll for actually helping the team.

improperdancing

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One thing I think Valve should add (if it's not in there already, and if it is we should add it to our competitive configs) is a thirty second start-up timer in matches where teams can't exit the spawn. This gives them a brief period before each round to strategize and choose classes. Giving teams thirty seconds like that encourages more variety and unique strats and would go a long way toward addressing the problems people have spoken of in this thread.

Adding an auto-switch function where teams are automatically swapped to the other team after each round (thus giving teams equal play time on each color) but that accurately preserves the scores would be welcome as well. Obviously this would only be needed for push or ctf maps, but it would still be a nice addition.

I tend to agree with Hawkeye, though. The second half of most games is a formality, and I would much rather play two maps in a single match than one map in two halves.

Hawkeye

Points: 3,886, Level: 41

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Alright, I will look at the configs for Push and post an experimental config for anyone wanting to try it out in a bit..

Here is how this is shaking down:

Push -
No Halftime period
Must win by two caps minimum but no less then 5
30 minute maximum time limit
45 seconds between rounds

- or -

2 20 minute halfs
Halftime at 3 caps
Max caps of 6 total
30 seconds between rounds

What this is designed around is this:

Giving teams the ability to think between each round a bit more. (mp_bonustime or the humiliation round)

This also will allow tgbf/pwnage a guaranteed time to get sponsor messages or discuss the round a bit (color commentary) or both. (Think commercials at a Change of Possession in American Football)

Halftime will be mainly to swap colors.

The Second option is mainly the established method of doing things in TF2, but adjusted to simply make a bit more sense and add relevance to the second half.

The first option uses the new CVARs for leagues that run a two map a week format, while maintaining the broadcasting side of things.

MjrNuT

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I like your Option B. :D

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Hawkeye

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Truthfully, I hate halftime, it's not only a pain, but might confuse a viewer if the teams trade jerseys.

MjrNuT

Points: 602, Level: 12

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Hate all you want. No stopping anyone there.

Halftime...is completely psychological in any sport setting. (not desiring to get into a comparison w/ other sports as has been done in the OT thread!)

Halftime, I think, instrumental for both teams. Changing sides...does change things. Some will say that they play the same no matter the color, while that may be true, but honestly partly true. Halftime can be true turning points for those teams that just...started off on the bad foot. It provides a moment to recollect the team's efforts, no matter the level. Changing out players!!

Halftime gives spectators some...anticipation. To see if something changes after the slapping around in the locker room. Moreover, w/ your option B having the 20 minute halves (reduced from typical) still makes for a paced match.

These things also just make easy sense to to anyone, player, nonplayer, spectator, etc. Can a non-halftime format work? I'm sure it could, it just needs promotion and selling just as much as the halftime format.

I just think your Option B is much much more viable with what you've proposed.


I would add the 45 seconds b/t rounds though.


Lastly, I'm thankful you are proposing such configs!!


Edit:

Example from a TWL Div 4 match to possibly consider (double ought vs. NLS on badlands)

Demo files that might work (june 30th)

Some video footage but may not really show a thing to help this as its been awhile since watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4JZrX99-YM


I can't remember exactly, but 1st half dO was down, then took it to the end to win and the halftime, I think in this one, mattered.

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shdw.puppet

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there are lots of examples of teams, down at halftime, taking the win in the end. I realize that there might not be a solid reason for a half-time, but before completely removing it, you should take a poll of the community. At the end of the day, what they want is what is going to be most popular.