defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

I don't see how playing a better team and getting better from it is "magical", it's literally one of the best ways to get better, in anything.

You ARE going to get better playing teams that 5-0 you. Yeah, don't play complexity, nobody even said that, what a bad contrast, i would never compare a low/mid team playing against any team in esea-o to a mid team playing complexity. And of course the teams that only play once/twice a week aren't going to get much out of esea, but I already said that in earlier posts and threads.

You aren't going to improve as much playing teams that are on the same level as you because they make the same mistakes as you. The best way to improve is to play a team that really destroys you every time you make a mistake, than you actually know what kind of mistakes you are making. Plus, why would you even care about your score in a scrim? Honestly who cares if you get 5-0'd in a scrim, if it does happen, you should take that chance and see what you are doing wrong. If you are losing every mid fight, than just try and figure out a way to win a mid fight.

Two matches a week aren't going to make you mid and of course scrimming is a huge part of it, however a lot of low/mid teams don't wanna scrim teams that are better than them, I remember last season there were a bunch of teams that claimed they were mid, but would advertise as low/mid in fear that they would actually have to play a team that would challenge them. So in ESEA you know you are going to be playing better teams than you would anywhere else.

If you just wanna join a league where you aren't going to be challenged then go for it, people are getting all defensive like I am saying every team in the world should join ESEA and if you don't than you hate tf2 and you don't wanna get better. Even though I haven't said that once. Of course a team shouldn't join ESEA if they are a low team and are brand new. However, I figure if people are spending time reading and posting on this forum than they might be some what committed to TF2 so there isn't a better place than ESEA.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

Hawkeye

Points: 5,054, Level: 48

Activity: 50.0%

Actually getting 5-0 by many teams is a good way to get a quick easy STV demo of an opposing teams strats to see the basics, Were you beat to mid, how they utilized their scouts on the mid fights, when should you have got the heck out. It's possible you saw a new strat you haven't seen and need to devise a defence against it. It's worth the time to play the teams that 5-0 you as long as you are looking for something to get out of it.

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

Activity: 21.2%

It's magical in that playing a handful of games alone, regardless of how good the teams you're playing against are, isn't going to do much in the long term. As I said, teams get better through scrimming, not through league play. League play exists to validate their efforts outside of the league to get better.

I disagree that playing teams at your level doesn't help you. Playing long, drawn out games against an even opponent provide the best chance for a player to get better because every moment is so important, and every misstep can lead to the enemy team gaining momentum. This doesn't exist when you play a team that's out of your league.

The best games are always the ones that are hyper-competitive because they force the best out of you and your teammates. A long 5-0 match may be beneficial as well, but I fail to see much benefit in a 5-0 steamroll. As Hawkeye said, you can get the STV and analyze what the other team did, but if I want to analyze what a team does right I'll just download some Complexity or blight (or any other top-tier team) STVs and use those instead.

As far as those low-mid teams that don't want to scrim people better than them...well...do they belong in ESEA to begin with? Why pressure a team that has no place in a league like ESEA to join? If people have no commitment to getting better as a team they shouldn't be joining CEVO-M, ESEA, or even the higher divisions of TWL.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

Huh? I read this entire thread and not one single person said that, so i don't know what you mean. The best chance to get better is to play a team that isn't making the same kind of mistakes you are. If you are a low/mid team, and you play a low/mid team, they are going to be making the same low/mid mistakes that you are making. So lets say your team makes 15 mistakes over the course of a match, a low/mid team might be able to only capitalize on 7 of your mistakes, so there for you will be making mistakes, but because you aren't play a better team, you won't know you were making mistakes and you will continue to do that.

Never said anything about steamrolls. However, even though looking at better teams play is a great way to improve, you can't just look at complexity play and just say "ok lets do that". It is way better to scrim a team and then you can compare what they did right, to what you did wrong. For example you could see that their demo was getting their faster and he was really the one making you lose, or maybe your soldiers were slower and you need to get faster. You can't just watch complexity play and say "ok do that". You need to see what you are doing wrong compared to other teams.

What? Read my posts, I said teams that have 6 players committed to getting better should join esea because it is the best league for that. I even said that if teams barely ever scrim, and really don't care about getting better than they should play in a less serious league. Either you are confused or something, because nobody has said anything like that, nobody is pressuring low team that doesn't have any committed players to join esea. Maybe you are replying to somebody else idk.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

Activity: 18.2%

All I want to say if TF2 dies because people quit b/c there's no ESEA, there's no one else to blame but the players themselves.

If the only reason you're playing this game is the pipe dream of this game becoming big and attracting sponsors/LANs/etc. it's probably for the best that they're brought back down to reality. If it were going to happen, it would have happened by now.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks this game is "growing exponentially" or that the growth that has happened is because of ESEA and one LAN.

Either way, I'm pretty sure both EG and coL intend to keep on playing even if ESEA dies. There's truly something wrong if this game's success hinges on one league and one weekend LAN.

I hope we do reach the 50 teams, but if we don't, it's up to the players to not let TF2 die. Europe went through the same thing with UKeSA dying, and now their scene is stronger than ever.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

Why would EG and col intend to keep supporting a game where they can get no attention at all?

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

Activity: 18.2%

EG and coL may not - although I think they would see it out for a little while at the least. The cost of a tf2 team is next to nothing and it brings them free publicity. If there was a LAN with good publicity then why wouldn't they send their teams? Either way, I was talking about the players of those teams, not the sponsors.

And anyways, ESEA means pretty much nothing to EG and coL. I hope you realize that EG and coL's intent is to support a TF2 team so that in the future when there are more major events they will gain more publicity. If EG and coL found out right now that ESEA is all TF2 ever was going to be I don't think they would continue supporting these teams.

I think that some people have a too optimistic view of ESEA and/or a too pessimistic view of an alternate league. ESEA hasn't benefited TF2 much at all outside of its own realm over the past few seasons and I don't see much of a reason why we should expect TF2 to blow up if we continue along this road. At the same time, I don't think TF2 will have no chance of growing if ESEA dropped TF2. It would die, however, if players quit, and the community flopped instead of making a serious attempt at starting a NATF2L or whatever.

Europe started etf2l and seasons later it has attracted the attention of assembly and i40 to give LANs to the community. If Europe can do it, I see no reason why America can't do it.

The only reason why I'm even bothering with this post is because by now we seem to be getting closer and closer to the deadline and it's more and more likely that we won't reach 50 teams. ESEA knows that if its this difficult to get enough teams now, there's not much of a guarantee that anything will be different in the future. Unless lpkane is feeling generous I don't think ESEA is going to happen.

xenema

Points: 609, Level: 12

Activity: 9.1%

rofl what

on what authority do you post this kind of stuff?

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

Activity: 18.2%

I'm stating what I think is apparent. EG and coL are businesses, when they invest in something, TF2, whatever, they are expecting something out of it.

They already have a CS team at ESEA LAN, the marginal benefit they get out of supporting a TF2 team in terms of publicity is not that much.

And if you don't believe me then you probably do believe their press release:

Either way, I hope no one thinks I want ESEA to fail. I don't. But I think that TF2 could go on without ESEA, but it needs the players support to do that.

Kermit

Points: 2,008, Level: 28

Activity: 11.8%

11 hours left and it seems like it'll happen.

SealClubber

Points: 2,301, Level: 31

Activity: 0%

How many teams are currently signed up? Navigating the esea webpage without an account is pretty brutal...

Bodknocks

Points: 2,419, Level: 31

Activity: 0%

http://esea.net/index.php?s=league&d...vision_id=1555

43 in open, 20 fully paid for so far. A LOT more are partially paid for which is why most people think that we're in the clear. Intermediate is harder to tell, there are like 23 teams signed up but only 7 paid for, and a lot of teams look dead. But either way the 50 mark has already been hit, and lots of teams are rushing to sign up at the last minute.

As long as everyone gets paid before time runs out, ESEA should be good to go.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

I looked at the teams, if if you add all the people that have at least 6 paid in open, there are 35 teams ready. If you look at IM than there are 15 teams ready.

So that is 50 teams not including invite, so seems like we are in the clear.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it