brute-

Points: 1,773, Level: 25

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I was thinking about the old TGL days after seeing the post about their interest in coming back and supporting TF2 which made me watch some video's of old epic (if that can be said) CTF matches.

CTF is probably one of my favorite gamemodes across various games and I think I'm one of the few who actually enjoy it in TF2 on the right maps so I just wanted to see how few others out there actually like it too :) given the map challenge going on Im hoping to see some good maps come out and given a shot.

I think CTF has been held back by map design mostly and not necessarily its playstyle, I actually like mach4 (yea I kno) I just think its a tad too small and I'm curious how a straight A/D CTF would play out on a well made map....

In the latest CEVO Map discussion, at the beginning of last season, ctf_turbine was a hot topic of discussion and ultimately it was map design that gave it the boot from regular season play not the fact that it was ctf so whats everyones opinion on the style of play that CTF brings to TF2 and where's its place if it has one?

DeathBySnuSnu

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I think CTF is a fun pub play style but not a good competitive type. ctf_deliverance might be worth giving more of a try with a neutral middle flag that you have to bring to the enemies base. I know from my experiences on turbine (which its highly possible that it could just be me being on teams that don't know how to handle the map) that it seems a lot more like middle of the map dm with a few ounces of luck. I'd have to say I think the map layout of Turbine makes the most sense for a ctf map with one flag for each team and therefore I don't think that it can really be a competitive play style persay though I'm sure its possible someone will prove me wrong in the near future and I hope they do because it is quite fun to play.

bcarr

Points: 410, Level: 8

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I think the mechanic as it's presented in TF2 makes this gamemode go by even faster than it should be. The biggest change I could suggest is that only when a team has successfully defended their own flag can they capture the opposing team's flag.

Additionally, playing maps such as ctf_turbine with only 6v6 means that scouts and soldier/snipers would be getting plenty of use, not to mention Natasha heavies of camping engineers. The scoring system might need a revision as well. Perhaps a more soccer/football style map where teams play 20-30m halves and finish no matter the score?

HOLY CRAP WHAT AN EPIC IDEA

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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We've tried CTF several times here, never worked

Hawkeye

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The primary issue of CTF is the 6v6 format really doesn't leave you enough bodies to pursue it. If your on defensive, you MUST leave someone near the flag defending (Heavy/Engy) leaving you 1 man down to push to a opponent who has a secured position, or wait for the carnage and push back.

CTF worked will in Quake/Tribes since there we larger team, 3-4 offensive, while the rest played some form of defense. Or the Team Fusion 5 man offense they experimented with in Tribes.

When you only have six, it is pretty ugly in the current format.

Now as far as Invade CTF, this is a much better scenario given the format change. But the mid-fight is MUCH different as your target can get grabbed and fly off, making the race to mid MUCH more crucial then it normally is. This mode shows promise, I tried deliverance in XPL to see what people thought, I had a great time playing it which is odd for a CTF map, the issue was it was possible for a single soldier or demo to lock down the map and trap the scouts the way the map was designed.

Still like the gamemode and want to try it some more, but the scoring might need to get looked at. Expect a Competitive format discussion on CTF in the near future.

DeathBySnuSnu

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So do you feel that CTF is well suited for lets say Highlander or 8v8 gameplay formats because highlander has a engineer who is well suited to flag defense and a higher number of bodies?

brute-

Points: 1,773, Level: 25

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I thought a few questions over the last few hours and I wanted to know if any of you had thoughts:

I'm a longtime model maker and mapmaker for fun but never for serious :) and I think aside from the pure limitations brought on by 6v6 instead of say 8v8 I think perhaps we're looking at the game too straight forward and righting classic CTF off because of what we've been used to.

For example, what makes CTF work in other games like Halo and are those aspects unatainable in TF2. Is the respawn system in TF2 CTF where it is predictable, singular, and campable holding the game mode back, is the lack of length and shortness in travel distance/cramped spaces holding the manuverability back, is the long travel time in and out connecting the middle to the flag to the spawn forcing a certain playstyle and can this be adjusted and changed to TF2.

I was contemplating not only shifting the mode from 2 flags w/ flag return times to A/D style but also creating a map similar to that of say, Blood Gulch from Halo 1 (but obviously TF2 themed and inspired) where the open middle connecting two simple and diverse structures housed the flags allowed for multiple routes across the map (tucked inside mountain sides) and quick in and out while not allowing spawns to be camped and thus trapping a team (aka random spawns or uncampable spawn rooms).

I think another thing thats holding CTF back, at least potentially for the above style map is the reliance on the Medic and what it means to a team, obviously defensively the uber is fantastic however I think pushing with a focus on uber or kritz forces at least a sizeable chunk of the team to be central and clustered rather then sparatic and spread out leading to very predictable and forseeable fights that kind of ruin the constant hectic struggle that other games enjoy in CTF.

Any thoughts and suggestions there as I'm trying to get information to come up with a new and creative map with potentially new systems of already understood ideas (respawns primarily).

shdw.puppet

Points: 3,599, Level: 39

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I think we just need map designs that discourage natascha heavies and engineer campers. CTF and SND were my favorite game modes during my COD4 days and I would like to see it done a lot better for TF2. I like turbine, but I admit that it has problems, mach4 is... not my favorite map any day of the week and I played around with a bunch of maps from the latest tf2maps.com contest (competitive CTF) and they all have the wrong focus entirely.

We need to be encouraging fast, dynamic play, not camp for 30 minutes when you are up by one.

Para Goomba

Points: 1,387, Level: 21

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So all teams that hold the choke for 10 minutes are doing it wrong?

Obviously CTF is too complicated for 6v6, so it will never happen cuz there isn't enough players to protect and attack at the same time. Highlander would be more productive on CTF as there are more players.

brute-

Points: 1,773, Level: 25

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He's not saying the teams are playing wrong, he's saying because of how the map and game design is instituted teams are put into a position where the best way to ensure you do well is to play a style that is boring and stale. aka wrong for competitive tf2

I think we're saying CTF is just too complicated because of the 6v6 format far to quickly. Why is 6 not enough? Can you not think of a way in which we could play this game mode with 6? I think with alterations to game mechanics and map design 6 could be more then enough.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,682, Level: 40

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spend the time getting better new attack/defend maps, gorge is ok but not amazing and everyone knows broma was crap

brute-

Points: 1,773, Level: 25

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I was talking about A/D for CTF as a possibility - one team defends the flag while the other attempts to grab it. And with standard ctf trying to hasten the pace of the game with instant flag returns on touch and more open maps for attacks and mobile defenses.

Fish #641

Points: 2,875, Level: 34

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Playing Turbine like Europeans do (you know, the people that actually play the map enough to understand it) is actually quite enjoyable. Having people statically defending is not. The idea is that holding the center can be more important than capping once, and if they break into your base, it's often better to try to rush out to the middle, get some high ground, and defend from there. Unfortunately, with Natascha's current state, Turbine would be extremely un-fun, even if played correctly.

Graham

Points: 83,906, Level: 100

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I like the discussion. CTF interests me a lot for this upcoming season of CEVO but I am having trouble finding the best maps.

http://communityfortress.com/tf2/lea...ng-tonight.php

Everyone should come to the meeting if you have an interest in the map rotation this season.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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No its not. Demomen have a huge advantage, scouts do all the work. It's not a good map at all. Europe is even starting to realize that and they are considering removing it. I'm pretty sure EMS doesn't have turbine in their map rotation, and I'm pretty sure etf2l's AFS doesn't either.

It's not a matter of understanding the map. The most effective tactics all involve dumb gameplay ideas like turtling.

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

Activity: 21.2%

The thing is, doing CTF that way basically turns it into a push map. Also, having played Deliverance, I can vouch that it's not very fun.

I tend to agree with Hawkeye, though. 6v6 is just too small for CTF, as the game mode is predicated on being able to properly divide your team into attack and defend squads, and that's almost impossible to do successfully with such a small amount of players.

Highlander would probably be an ideal game mode for CTF, as it limits classes and thus forces each of them into more defined roles. But since highlander isn't all that popular, CTF is probably doomed to be a pub and novelty game mode.

Not that I'm going to complain. Mach4 is the only CTF map I've ever enjoyed in TF2, and there are more than enough push maps (and Gpit) to fill out a season of competitive TF2.

Daystar

Points: 930, Level: 17

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As if there ever was anything complicated or confusing about Turbine, eh?

ctf_wildfire_rc is a good CTF map (not on pubs though), so check it out.

It's in the Wireplay TF2 7v7 League that has just started, so I'll let you guys know how we find it plays when Week 6 arrives!

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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TF2 isn't a ctf style game IMO. CTF generally involves a defense, a middle ground force, and an offense to retrieve the flag - but in a slow paced game like TF2, where teams are dependent on medics, and scouts can't destroy sentries and thus can't get the intel, the whole scheme falls apart. In tf2, it just becomes a matter of territory; the people who are good at it turtle, demomen sticky the whole map, repeated scout and spy suicides for intel.

In TFC with conc jumping offenses were able to enter a base and leave within seconds, taking the flag, despite sentries or even heavies being in the base. That's the kind of dynamic that makes CTF work. Not turtling middle and spawn camping. In quake, you didn't have concs, you had haste, quad, regeneration, armor - these were the tools to penetrate a base and get a flag.

I think instead of trying to bring back a failed game type, we should try adding more dynamic maps like gravelpit and viaduct. I hate how map makers are making clones of our staple push maps badlands and granary (copies of badlands like gullywash and obscure, and copies of granary like mainline, and copies of both like follower).

What TF2 really needs is a new gameplay mechanic that's different from what we already have. The only maps that come remotely close to doing that are yukon, and maybe freight.

brute-

Points: 1,773, Level: 25

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why give up on ctf though? I agree the game needs new gameplay mechanics but why does that rule out trying to reinvent ctf? what if there were rules or mechanics that could be in place that made ctf perform in tf2 more like quake - no engineers in ctf play or wider entrance points for quick entrances and exits? just trying to gather idea's here for how ctf could be more fun to play again - game modes like ctf are usually very fan friendly and exciting to watch when their pulled off the right way so i figure its worth it if it works.

Fish #641

Points: 2,875, Level: 34

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Uhh, VG's Turbine strat was pretty much the poster child of the turtling that you're talking about, and that was beaten by people who weren't playing the classes they were best at, with not very good teamwork, and a lot less DM than the other team. Saying "lol it's turbine, what's to understand?" seems pretty cool, but the sad truth is that people think that you can score quicker (and it's just a race) by using a spy to inch the intel across the map than you can by taking territory, and intelligently pushing in and backing off in order to score when you need it.
I'm not saying that CTF is better than 5-cp, but we haven't explored past a very basic map (turbine), and even at the current map that we use, we haven't even gotten past playing it like a pub. That's like playing only orange_x3 and saying that 5cp is bad.

Also, gullywash is the only custom that comes close to badlands. Follower and freight are the closest to granary (with different mid points). Obscure and Mainline are much different than either. Also, yukon doesn't flow all that well.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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CTF was played in the first season of CEVO (mach4, impact) and europeans have explored it too. Every time we've played it people . It always seems like a good idea but it never plays out well - what makes you think this time it would be different? There may be a cleaner way to play it, but if that way was better, then people would probably play it that way. Instead the map is a turtle fest combined with Team Demoman 2.

@brute - CTF in TF2 would never play like Quake or TFC - the way I think CTF is meant to be played. TF2 is like Counter strike in the way it plays out, it's all about territory in *every* game mode. I think turbine is a map with a good design and it could be a good map, but I'm skeptical because in practice it has never worked out.

Also...Just cause obscure and follower look different doesnt mean its a different map. For the goal of a different gameplay dynamic follower, obscure, gullywash are terrible. That's not to say they are bad maps, of those gullywash is probably the best, but at their core they aren't original. And mainline is just a bad map.

Freight really doesn't have much at all to do with granary, and yukon isn't related to badlands/granary either. I agree with you yukon's flow is not that great, but I think it's a better idea to choose maps like these instead of badlands/granary clones.

Freight in particular - I think freight final has made freight a much much much better map, with a lot fewer choke points. I think freight final should be the next map to join badlands-granary-gravelpit-viaduct as our core maps.

brute-

Points: 1,773, Level: 25

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yea, i dont think i could disagree w/ your assessment of ctf in the cross game comparison more. Put a turbine like map in Quake or TFC and it would play just as stagnantly.. where would you see the quake speed jumps or armor fights before pushing in? and for tfc how would middle play out any differently whatso ever accept for conc jumping which is substituted in tf2?

I just think your looking @ the CTF tf2 situation so negatively because of how its being played and not consiering how to make it play out more like the Quake pace - obviously its not going to be as quick but I think with a more open layout and emphasis on ease of movement w/ multiple levels with smaller health packs to support jumping and quick scout battles the playstle could mirror that of other games farely well.

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

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Why do custom maps have to have the goal of a different gameplay dynamic? Why change what works? What makes Gullywash such an amazing map is that it's fun to play, it requires some different strats from other push maps, and it's well-designed for almost every class in the game. I don't care if it's stylistically similar to other maps, and I doubt most other people do either.

Originality is overrated. Indulge is original and it sucks. I'd play a million Badlands and Granary clones like Follower and Freight before I'd play one round of shitty Indulge.

Not gonna disagree about Mainline, but the newest rc looks like it has some potential, as it has seen a redesign and they made all the hallways and doorways less spammy.

From a design perspective Freight is fairly close to Granary in the second and last points. Both have similar warehouse set-ups, sniper perches, and last point areas.

Yukon is a bit different, but it's also not all that fun, as last turns into a turtley clusterfuck where a smart team will run two Heavies and force the other team to quit out of sheer boredom (see the snorefest Yukon matches at the ESEA LAN for proof of how ridiculous this tactic is).

All Freight final did effectively was fix the respawn timers. Other than that they neutered the sniper, which makes fights for last much more prone to stalemates.

density

Points: 1,250, Level: 20

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I was actually just thinking of this tonight, to be honest. I'd love to get started in like 2v2 or 3v3 CTF, sounds great.

__________________
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b4nny

Points: 1,850, Level: 26

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Honestly, plr_hightower is the closest thing i've seen to fun CTF-like gameplay in TF2.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

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Well I don't know, but I think the point of different maps is to emphasize a different skill or strategy. It would be extremely bland to have 3 different versions of badlands and granary with no real differences between them. The point of different maps in any game is to be about different skills.

I'm surprised someone is arguing that point - do you really want a TF2 where we play different versions of two maps? Really?

Freight final changed two huge chokepoints all leading into the second point. Who doesn't like the middle point? It's sort of similar to granary at 2nd, and a lot at last, but it's not the kind of copy that gullywash is on all points, or follower, or obscure. Either way, we haven't even played it here yet, so you can't be sure it stalemates too much.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,682, Level: 40

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soldiers and demos are too overpowered at the end though, spamming down from the gpit c ish platform with the full health pack is ridiculous

shdw.puppet

Points: 3,599, Level: 39

Activity: 66.7%

I think the question we are trying to answer is: can CTF be fun? We dont choose maps on hard and true basis, we choose them on the arbitrary notion of "fun". That is ok, this is a video game and it is supposed to be fun, but the point is not that turbine is bad, but that it is not fun.

And I see no reason why ctf cant be played with 6, a long time ago, I played 5v5 CTF on COD4 and it was a blast, it was the most fast paced game type of them all (even on maps that sucked major ass).

We need to be asking ourselves: what makes granary, badlands, gullywash, freight etc fun? What elements contribute to a map you dont mind playing on for 45 minutes to an hour? How can we take those elements and put them into a CTF map? These are the kinds of questions developers do in the research stage of almost anything, know your target audience, know what they want, keep that in mind and make a product based on those key features while not being a copy of everything else.

brute-

Points: 1,773, Level: 25

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thank you shdw.puppet :) thread back on track!

shdw.puppet

Points: 3,599, Level: 39

Activity: 66.7%

To me it seems that the biggest problems with the two ctf maps I have played extensively (2fort and turbine) boil down to

a.) too much of a camping mechanic. Engineers are too viable and natascha heavies dont need more advantage than they already have. To be fun, gameplay that is fast paced and always moving needs to be encouraged heavily. To this extent, we can look at A/D ctf maps, there are a few really fun ones out there (cannot remember their names) or look to other games to see what provides fun and fast paced ctf experience.

b.) spawn camping. This is a problem in many games with ctf, there was always those people in COD and Halo that memorized the spawn areas and where people were most likely to be based on current game situation. Besides the fact that these people need to get a life, it shows that no game has really solved that problem yet. Technically, all TF2 gametypes have problems with spawn camping. It is almost to easy on dustbowl et. all and it happens on 5 point cp maps, albeit to lesser effect (not to mention blue spawn camping red on gpit). I think the solution to this is innovative and creative spawn placement with heavy use of blocking entrances for the opposite team.

MOAR RESEARCH NEEDED!!!! (that is code for brb, playing videogames)