internetexplorer_

Points: 1,812, Level: 26

Activity: 8.3%

Like or dislike?

I don't want to start a huge idiotic flamewar, and I do respect really high level players, but it seems like a lot of teams are using 'mentoring' as a crutch to screw around and make half my scrims really boring.

From what I can see, even if somebody offclasses, being a high level player on a low team still means a LOT. Somebody like banny can clearly play scout really well (even though his main is demo), but he probably has great calls and stuff that make a huge difference to the team he's ringing for. Sure, that's his goal in mentoring them for the round, but when's the last time Wayne Gretzky helped a bunch of 'little league' players directly on the ice?

The problem is that when I get my team together to scrim we don't pick an invite player to carry us. We just get all 6 of our low/mid players and hope to face off against the same (or close to it). It's awkward to have to advertise "6s low/mid (LOW MID FOR REAL PLEASE)."

It seems like this should be a matter of etiquette like when my kitchen starts on fire, I pause and some kid goes "OMG NO PAUSE IN SCRIM PLZZZZZ"

Or am I out of line..?

AndyADD

Points: 3,137, Level: 36

Activity: 8.3%

No imo your not out of line. Usually in irc when I advertise and I see a player message me and I noticed they did not advertise I would respond saying "Are you some mid/high team that just got crushed by another team and need to play against a lower team just to get you self esteem back?" Only response I got from that was "wrong person" and no I'm not stroking my ego on that. Usually no one replies back. Unless I know the person and our team wants a challenge. But... my sig pretty much explains how my view is on this discussion.

Sakura

Points: 1,598, Level: 23

Activity: 0%

That's not really how mentoring works. :x Mentors usually watch demos or spectate scrims. Playing without your starting 6 won't help much.

AndyADD

Points: 3,137, Level: 36

Activity: 8.3%

Agreed. One week jeager was mentoring one team we faced (he was speccing). After couple of scrims we asked if he can play against us on the team he was mentoring. We 5v6 (basically he was the only soldier) it was interesting round to say the least.

Aries L. Thunder

Points: 647, Level: 12

Activity: 9.1%

It does seem odd that a mentor would jump in like that- though I can see it more if the person plays medic - sometimes a mentor will jump in as medic to diagnose problems with the team.

I can imagine inviting the invite player to play against my team though, if only to see how tough the guy is are 'in person'. :3

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

Once you stop worrying about who you are playing, their ringers, and whether or not you win/lose a scrim, you might start seeing a lot of improvements. Scrims are for improving, the score doesn't matter, you can still improve against a team that is low/mid, but just has an invite ringer.

Also, pausing scrims is stupid, all you are doing is wasting the other teams time.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

this post defines commft, nobody does that, that would be a complete waste of time for a mid/high team

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

I don't necessarily agree about the pausing thing, but other than that I'd have to say defiance is mostly right

besides, the skill gap in tf2 has closed enough that, if an invite player is playing a class other than their main, they shouldn't really be able to completely carry a low/mid team

internetexplorer_

Points: 1,812, Level: 26

Activity: 8.3%

when you put it that way I definitely agree

it's just irritating sometimes when it seems like the team you're against would be a good match if they hadn't grabbed "that one guy" to carry them

I feel like I learn a lot more and get better much faster when I play people who are only a bit above my skill level (not a LOT)

the main problem is that we line ourselves up to play a low/mid team, join the server, wait around, and then their mystery 6th shows up and it's like "Introducing...Relic!" ...then we all start saying 'aw crap what do we do now?' It almost seems like an underhanded trick, because it would be in poor taste to be a wuss and say "sorry we don't want to play you now"

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

what you should focus on, then, is finding a strat that nullifies that player

like if it's a scout, then load the flanks super heavy with 2 scouts and a roamer all the time, so he can't just barrel through whoever's there, or if it's a roamer then be wary of super early mid bombs, etc.

and with the advent of hats, learn to see him coming ;>

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

Just try to understand why that player is carrying them so hard. And just focus him first, there was a team in open last season that had a great demo, one of the best in open, but the rest of their players were just so so. We simply focused him down constantly, and then we were able to win every fight if we killed him first.

You just have to adapt to what they are doing, and learn how to counter them.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

you're talking about Treason aren't you :>

Aries L. Thunder

Points: 647, Level: 12

Activity: 9.1%

Eh, I don't usually mind pausing in scrims if say the other's team medic lags out since it doesn't usually take too long. We don't personally do it though unless it's a special occasion (a pre-scheduled scrim against a team we know).

AndyADD

Points: 3,137, Level: 36

Activity: 8.3%

You're right, I mean just mid teams. Not mid/high.

Zigzter

Points: 2,563, Level: 32

Activity: 0%

I wish people thought that way about MGE/DM.

__________________
Player coL.PYYYOUR left the game (Kicked by Console)
coL.carnage : just kicked him from col
coL.carnage : hate that guy

DrHeadcrab

Points: 319, Level: 6

Activity: 16.7%

QFT

Bikini

Points: 3,930, Level: 41

Activity: 8.3%

cough Tyler's ex invite team... boogie has 2x more points than the med

breloom

Points: 1,745, Level: 25

Activity: 8.3%

I find that the other team having a really good ringer is better for you and worst for them, because your team gets to practice against someone really good and try to nullify them like some teams in leagues, while the team with the ringer has a crutch during the scrim and the scrim won't really help the team improve.

internetexplorer_

Points: 1,812, Level: 26

Activity: 8.3%

this is probably very true!

b4nny

Points: 1,850, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

You're the first to compliment my scout play (though I remember you guys let me get away with some crazy shit using BONK).

Recently I've been getting asked to fill in in scrims or lobbies by people that I met in pubs and they often bring me in to these "low/mid" level games. I'm usually just trying to amicably help them out, so I feel like it would be unfair to blame me for accepting their offers. On the other hand I doubt they are trying to roll someone by getting me as a ringer but it's more part of this sort of ingratiation thing that occurs to prevent me from removing them from friends or something. I guess you just have to do as you said and come to an understanding with the other team first.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvWGdrydg7E

chapdizzle

Points: 1,312, Level: 21

Activity: 16.7%

coulda just ended the thread right thurr

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

but then I wouldn't be able to post my fav tf2 clip ever

Rinta

Points: 1,328, Level: 21

Activity: 0%

True stuff.

Although, still hard to improve anything if you get rolled 5:0 in 15 min.
But if it's just one offclassing invite-lvl ringer - it doesn't make SO much difference, really.

Also, what's wrong with pausing in scrims?
If someone's internet dropped/kitchen is on fire/whatever - you're basically playing 6v5. How'd you improve from that? If other team has problems and asks for pause - it's just strange to refuse...

breloom

Points: 1,745, Level: 25

Activity: 8.3%

because it's a waste of time for both teams to just sit there doing literally nothing when the game is paused.

density

Points: 1,250, Level: 20

Activity: 33.3%

OP's post x100...
So true. I recent got into a conversation about this, about the fact that there are so many Invite players in Open. Not only does it discourage new players just going into ESEA, but how will these teams decide on ESEA next season? Are all of the new Open teams that are getting smashed by teams carried by Invite players honestly going to pay league fees and premium next season just to get stomped again?


http://www.esportsea.com/index.php?s...tch&id=2041578

1 point away from having 2x as much points as the next player down

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8:05 tgbf: I'm the world's first anal-rapist. It's a combination of analysis and therapist.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

points don't really matter, he only has 7 more frags than tyler so it isn't that insane, just focus him every fight /win

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

Dun

Points: 486, Level: 9

Activity: 0%

Similar to what's been said, it's only going to hurt the team with the invite player in the long run if the invite player intends on leaving in the future. The other players are going to be so intent on relying on their "carry" to pick up frags that once that player is focused and killed or has left the team, they're helpless.

It's just as good practice facing these teams as it is with another standard team because it gives you experience in unusual scenarios where you're facing a really competent sniper, etc.

density

Points: 1,250, Level: 20

Activity: 33.3%

We did...he two shotted our Scouts every time...

__________________
8:05 tgbf: I'm the world's first anal-rapist. It's a combination of analysis and therapist.

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

Activity: 8.3%

then get a soldier to kill him