cco

Points: 2,154, Level: 29

Activity: 8.3%

Hey all, I've been trying to play a class other than medic of late, for the most part I'm on the MGE server playing Demoman or Soldier, but I'm going to talk about Soldier.

I don't win much, but against other soldiers and demos things are okay, I can analyze my mistakes and everything is hunky dory, I generally end the game 20-5, but every time I'm leaving the enemy below 100. My problem is with Scouts, I tend to give up the height advantage, so I propose this question.

"Other than taking the Height Advantage back, what ways are there to keep enemies, especially scouts, who don't need to sacrifice health from taking the Height Advantage?"

Please help a n00b in need.

Jesus

Points: 4,136, Level: 43

Activity: 5.9%

Wait what? Playing soldier v scout in MGE is easy. Just get up high than them. Demoman v scout is always going to be tough though.

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cco

Points: 2,154, Level: 29

Activity: 8.3%

Really? I actually handle Scouts BETTER as a Demoman. My problem is that when I get the high ground, they just take shots at me and chip me down, or hide. My rocket aim probably just needs more work, but beyond taking the high ground, does anybody have tips?

waxpax

Points: 2,304, Level: 31

Activity: 33.3%

Work on your prediction and hit them when they touch the ground as using your splash on the ground is lower risk than going for a direct or an airshot (as you get better, you should aim for more directs and use splash to just save you from the rare times your aim is a little off). This will be easier if you wait for them to double jump as the movement after a double jump is relatively predictable compared to everything else a scout can do before committing to a double jump.

Just play a lot versus a lot of different scouts and try to work out the general movements that scouts make in most situations; alternatively, you can aim at the place you would go if you were that scout vs a soldier. Experience, intuition, and luck will probably take you a long way.

But, then, what do I know, I play medic because I can't aim :P

cco

Points: 2,154, Level: 29

Activity: 8.3%

Hey! Me too! We should hang out sometime!

Abawmb

Points: 592, Level: 11

Activity: 8.3%

I am gonna sound like a D-bag to Soldier plays but it takes no aim lol. Just splash damage, use the direct hit if you want to learn about aim...

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Weegee

Points: 2,014, Level: 28

Activity: 8.3%

Heh. Direct Hit is hardly viable. This isn't much help.

As for killing scouts, the best idea is to keep throwing rockets where you think they will land after they jump, especially after they double jump because then they cannot move until touching the ground again. Once you land a rocket on a scout you should know the path they will take due to your splash damage. Whip out your shotgun and get that 50-80dmg shot off and they're toast.

density

Points: 1,250, Level: 20

Activity: 33.3%

sv_gravity 5000

Or for the most part, try and take a step back..don't let scouts get that close to you. Use your environment to help you, take any advantage you can get via height

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kuza

Points: 2,021, Level: 28

Activity: 8.3%

soldier should beat scout in MGE. Are you using your shotgun at all?

Abawmb

Points: 592, Level: 11

Activity: 8.3%

Hardly??? If you were to get good with the Direct Hit you could kill anything with EASE, again Soldier really requires no aim at all splash damage > aim

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cco

Points: 2,154, Level: 29

Activity: 8.3%

Am I using it? Yes
Am I hitting with it? No

Of course, my machine isn't much of anything, I'll probably be doing better once I'm getting more than 30 fps.

It seems that once I get a hit, the scout's toast, my problem is landing that first hit. So I'm really asking that beyond stuff that the basic rules of thumb tell us to do, are there any little tricks to getting the one up on Scouts.

brainpower4

Points: 3,012, Level: 35

Activity: 0%

Ideally, you should be using 1 rocket 1 shotgun shot vs scouts. More realistically, you'll miss at least one rocket and deal splash damage with 2 more. The important thing is to remember to use the shotgun to finish the scout off. There is much more chance of wiffing your 4th rocket and ending up with no rockets left and almost no HP than dealing 30+ damage with a shotgun blast.

iarerobot

Points: 1,503, Level: 23

Activity: 8.3%

for you being denied means you have to strafe more, you need to build a lot of height in your jumps, so when you get denied, you cans till knock that scout off while you're in the air still.

you have to utilize the shotgun more, most of my scout kills in MGE are 2-3 rockets then shotgun since they always run away, you have to pin them down fast when they escape.

for general aiming against scouts, a lot of the time they vary their distance so you ahve to really cover the y axis properly which takes a lot of time and makign you aim on both axis. double jumping scouts only need one splash under thier feet and if they get too high you usually have to shotgun.

I'm emphasizing that again, SHOTGUN AND Y AXIS IMPORTANT!

TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

^ I don't think Y axis is the one you're thinking of. In TF2 the Z axis is the vertical one. The Y is one of the planar ones you navigate on.

forsaken

Points: 1,855, Level: 26

Activity: 0%

Your incorrectly annalyzing the core class advantages of soldiers in this particular situation, the soldiers natural gameplay advantage is height which allows him to operate best against most classes. In a compeditive setting the counterclasses are as follows.

Soldier > Scout
Scout > Demoman
Demoman > Soldier

However, this is strictly compeditive as its the teams formation as a whole which facilitates the demomans core advantage against the combo since the formation of a unified team counteracts the weakness of a demoman, that being his low health and fragile defence at close ranges.

For your particular scenario, that being soldier v scout, your allowing the scout to maintain his natural advantage, and giving him the advantage by attempting to utilize your classes weakness, ranged combat.

The scouts natural advantage is speed. His gained advantage is damage. His disadvantage is health.

The soldiers natural advantage is variable mobility (rocket jumping). His gained advantage is height. His disadvantage is long ranged combat.

Utilize your natural advantage jump ontop of the scout, he looses his natural advantage since he cant run anymore, you utilize your close range combat and your health over him. There is no way he will win.

However, this is mge we are talking about which doesnt represent a compeditive scenario very well, since most smart scouts mid game wont be directly fighting a fully healthed soldier, and you jumping them would naturally turn them running. But in mge theres no multi-cp's its just a constant out of place fight. So long as your good against soldiers your practice is decent, and if your theoretically sending scouts running for the hills with their pistols out then your likely doing okay, because in a real match your essentially making them useless.

Zigzter

Points: 2,563, Level: 32

Activity: 0%

Y is always vertical, unless you're some weirdo 3ds Max user.

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Rogue-

Points: 773, Level: 15

Activity: 23.5%

i always label "vertical" as z when working in 3-d space

when dealing with hard to hit scouts try to look for things to splash for guaranteed damage.

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RoboticRefrigeration

Points: 1,085, Level: 18

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I haven't read the entire thread so I may be repeating something, but you should be taking only two rockets to kill them optimally. Dont switch to your shotgun unless you're out of rockets or they're in the air and impossible to airshot. Its much faster and easier to just shoot them twice with a rocket. If they double jump be risky and go for those midairs. Its only MGE so no biggy if you miss.

In an actual game, I'd say you should still just use all your rockets before you switch to shotgun. Scouts generally wait for you to switch to your shotty before moving in super close, so switching early might just get you killed faster. Obviously you shouldn't try for crazy shots all the time in a real match, you'll likely just waste ammo, but if you think you can hit your shit I say go ahead.

btw, im not taking into account you having the height advantage. More often than not, scouts engage you on even ground, you shouldn't bank on the fact that you have height. NEVER JUMP AT A SCOUT. They'll knock you out of the air.

brainpower4

Points: 3,012, Level: 35

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I don't see why you are saying you shouldn't switch to the shotgun if you've already landed one 85+ damage rocket. There is a much better chance that the scout will dodge a 2nd rocket than avoiding taking 45 damage from a shotgun (assuming you are equally good with the shotgun as the RL, which is probably a pretty big assumption).

Also, a loaded rocket is generally a more important resource than a fully loaded shotgun. A soldier with 3 rockets and 4 shotgun shells can jump on a medic or demo immediately and pretty much guarantee a kill unless someone else intervenes. A soldier with 2 rockets and 6 shotgun shells probably can still get the kill, but it isn't as much of a guarantee.

RoboticRefrigeration

Points: 1,085, Level: 18

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You're bringing up a situation that isnt a 1v1. The OP asked for advice on killing scouts 1v1 and I responded on those terms. Obviously in a situation where something more deserving of your rockets is near you, you need to rocket jump, if you handle uber, or if you cant take 3 second to reload two rockets, switching to your shotgun wouldn't be a bad idea.

I also think you give scouts too much credit. Rockets are nearly impossible to dodge if you aim them right, the splash is ridiculous. If we're assuming you're trying to kill a scout in the situations where you should (close range) then one shouldnt have any trouble landing a second rocket. If the scout doesnt jump, shoot feet. If the scout jumps, wait till he falls and shoot feet, or hit him in the air if you feel like it.

I mean, I dont really have any problem with someone using their shotgun after their first rocket. If you can 100% of the time hit that shot, go ahead. Otherwise, you're taking an unnecessary risk considering how easy rockets are.

rehab

Points: 1,582, Level: 23

Activity: 8.3%

It's an "obvious" answer but I agree with robotic, even on an arena like ammomod the splash is so big that you can go "area denial" and try to cut the scout off. It's a choice that has its downfalls, but I prefer to take my time with shots rather than going for max DPS unloading everything as fast as I can, so one rocket being gone or not matters less IMO than overall positioning/control of the flow of the duel. If you're afraid of the scout getting height etc, really think about what he's going to have to do to get in that position, where he's going to have to move and jump eventually. Even if you can't get a good footshot and pop him up (which is understandably difficult if the scout jukes movement in ways that exploit twitch reflex aiming), the odds are that you can put a rocket in a place that'll make his life difficult enough that if you're thinking faster than him, you can get ahead of him in damage enough to close the duel. The fact that he can't actually affect your positioning unless you get hit in the air (without the fan assumed), while your knockback can push him around some, may give you a bit of a psyche advantage, too, depending.
Also agreed on not jumping on scouts, I'm not of the opinion that height advantage is so important you should be reaching for it all the time if you don't have it, the scout in particular can exploit your jump to become harder to hit just as well as you're used to using it to make things easier to hit (not to even get started on knocking you out of the air).

TMP

Points: 1,804, Level: 26

Activity: 16.7%

I dunno zigster, have you ever opened up hammer? It registers the maps as being from the top view as being on an xy grid, not an xz grid.

Ah well its just minor orientation.

Zigzter

Points: 2,563, Level: 32

Activity: 0%

Or a weirdo Hammer user. :<

If you look at those math graphs (forgot the name...it's been a few years), X is horizontal and Y is vertical.
Making that graph 3D would require the Z plane, which would also have to be horizontal.

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Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

I used to have the same problem (and still do against good Scouts), but I did work out a little formula.

If you can take height advantage, most Scouts will counter by trying to stay out of range and pick you off in chips of damage. They tend to strafe and jump erratically, but in many cases, there is what I call a hub: a central point of contact that intersects the Scout's strafe/jump area. In other words, Scouts tend to maneuver around a very small patch of ground/air, and there's a central point in the middle of that where splash damage will hit provided they maintain the hub.

So, I aim a rocket there, and that tends to produce a hit. Once hit, Scouts tend to pick a new hub, and all it takes is a quick adjustment of aim to target that. Or, if the initial hit was substantial, I'll switch to shotty and chip the rest.

More problematic is a Scout that's good at getting right up in your face. In that instance, the hub theory is less useful; you'll need to rely on aim and prediction, or rocket-jump straight up and try for a drop bomb.

honorableJay

Points: 807, Level: 16

Activity: 50.0%

Aside from what everyone else has already said, I'm gonna suggest you find a high fps config. The biggest problem that you're dealing with now is the sluggish framerate. It gets incredibly hard to predict and react when the game runs that slow (I think you said ~30fps?). At the least you should be getting 60fps to play normally, and if you can get more then you'll be set. If you're getting 30fps with a high fps config, it's time to get a new machine.

cco

Points: 2,154, Level: 29

Activity: 8.3%

Yeah it's a laptop, but the family is looking at a new desktop soon, which will solve all my problems =D thanks for the advice guys! I've been using Free's "Hub" theory to great effect!

ymmud

Points: 1,791, Level: 25

Activity: 25.0%

the best advice i can give is:
shoot 1 rocket, switch to your shotgun, scout comes in thinking youre out of rockets or w/e and wants to meatshot your face off, switch back to rockets, kill him
works SO much its ridiculous

cco

Points: 2,154, Level: 29

Activity: 8.3%

well see ymmud, this is in MGE, so it'll be kinda hard to fool the scouts.

Zigzter

Points: 2,563, Level: 32

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There's more to TF2 than MGE though.

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ymmud

Points: 1,791, Level: 25

Activity: 25.0%

MGE should only serve for actual gameplay
if you play MGE for MGE then youre wasting your time as its a practice mod, not a proper or even semi or semi semi semi proper 1v1