dekom

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Could those who are somewhat familiar with both natf2.com and commft provide some insight as to why the natf2 community and commft community seem to be very disconnected?

To me, it seems like commft offers some great materials written by community contributors, but the forum discussions seem to be lacking. Whereas, natf2 is the opposite, and all content are generated from the user posts (whether or not those posts are worthy of discussion...).

steelfirez

Points: 798, Level: 15

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Yep. I noticed this too. Basically, people post where other people post, and since people are posting on natf2, more people post on natf2. Honestly, natf2 is turning into gotfrag. Kinda.

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

Activity: 41.7%

Personally, I like NATF2, but forums aren't a big draw for me; all too often they become places where Internet anonymity provides a place where trolls, alts, and gotfraggers can go berzerk without fear of reprisal. That might seem appealing to some people--to each his own--but it holds no interest for me. Outside of the forums, what does NATF2 actually do in and for the community?

CommFT has a very different focus: organizing and promoting community events, coverage of competitive TF2, and sponsoring teams (we currently sponsor LASER BEAMS and BEST VIDEEO GAMERS). In addition, we hold community tournaments, work with eXtelevision, and try to support competitive TF2 through working with and promoting leagues and blogs.

I'd love to have NATF2's forum traffic here on CommFT, but not at the expense of the environment we have here--no alts, no trolls, no gotfragginess.

I noticed that thread on NATF2 and was puzzled at several responses. NeoRussia thinks we're devoted to low 6s and Highlander. That is incorrect. We're devoted to competitive TF2 at all levels in all formats. We did, after all, sponsor The Experiment last season, and we are currently sponsoring two more teams. If there's a lot of Highlander coverage, it's due to the rapidly increasing popularity of the format both with leagues and public interest. This is, after all, community fortress.

Another poster noted that we're too "mainstream," a claim I find ludicrous. We're talking about TF2, right? One of the largest, most successful (and free-to-play) multiplayer games out there--a game that has spawned countless memes, embedded itself in pop culture, and is produced by a major software giant. I would challenge that poster to define "mainstream" when it comes to TF2 as anything other than simply discussing the game. On a side note, the competitive Bejeweled site will be super pissed.

Scholar

Points: 661, Level: 13

Activity: 25.0%

I love commft. But I wish with all my heart that the more "general" tf2 community followed competitive. Even if they only bothered to check out extv's vods on youtube. That would be amazing. Like, kids don't even have to post here...just watch the youtube channel, give it more popularity.

breloom

Points: 1,745, Level: 25

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The only place any decent discussion about competitive maps happens is natf2.com

steelfirez

Points: 798, Level: 15

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somewhat true, seeing as there is no discussion about competitive maps on here.

Shwan

Points: 1,990, Level: 27

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I would first like to introduce myself and state some of my opinions. my name is Shwan and I currently play in the Intermediate ESEA division on Vector Gaming as a pocket soldier. I read and post on natf2 and am active within the community I am about to talk about. Just remember that while I'm saying all of this I love what commft does for the community such as the sponsorship, tournaments, and some articles. I am hoping to not insult anyone while at the same time giving the reasons why natf2 and commft are separate and will probably never be together. Just remember I am not trying to represent my community I am simply giving you my personal opinion on the issues stated in this thread. also I suck at writing so bare with me :)

Its important to understand the type of people that post on NATF2 because then you will understand why they don't visit commft. NAtf2 is a group of competitive ESEA 6v6 TF2 players, these people are serious about comp TF2. Almost all of them are on a team and spend the majority of their nights a week practicing and playing in matches, and because of this have lots of knowledge about TF2.

now that we have that understood lets ask the question; why don't they come here? Because the comp community is very tight and knowledge about their scene in order for them to want to read an article it needs to be written by someone who is in the scene themselves, and who is offering a unique perspective. That is why MGE had a good run of success; It had interesting articles (and videos) written by known members of the competitive community, who had something unique to say about the situation everyone else was living.

simply put Commft is currently not writing any articles that would appeal to the "hardcore" TF2 scene thus they arn't getting visits from them. Most of these articles are clearly not for the type of community that NATF2 is therefore non of them visit this site. I see that Commft is "hiring" more writers so maybe that will change, but as it stands right now its clear why NATF2 people don't visit this site.

If you had the same amount of forum traffic that natf2 has that would mean it would be worth posting on these forums, and if that were true it would be worth trolling these forums.

translation: excluding exactly what natf2 is what do they provide for the community?

natf2 is a forum that provides a place where the ESEA 6v6 players to communicate freely.

In order for discussion about a map to matter it needs to be talked about by people who will be playing those maps in the upcoming seasons; and by people who have actively been scriming the map. As of right now none of those people read anything said on this website. That isn't meant to be an insult however its just the reason no one discusses 6v6 maps here.

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Vector Gaming

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

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Great reply, schwan. I'd like to reply to a few points.

I believe you're correct, but I also believe that's one of the more serious problems afflicting the competitive TF2 community: its insular, clannish nature. We have articles on everything from Invite-level teams and matches to free-to-play, so I don't really think it's about who is writing the articles, unless there is a belief that only truly skilled players are sufficient commentators. If that's the view held, it thoroughly discredits eXtelevision, much less most of sports broadcasting and commentary. The local sports writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer, for example, doesn't need to be a pro-bowl quarterback, or a retired tight end to report and discuss football in an intelligent, legitimate way. He simply needs to know the game inside and out, and to understand how to communicate that to an audience, be it competitor, spectator, or general enthusiast.

So, and please bear in mind that this is my opinion and not the voice of CommFT speaking, I believe it isn't so much what we are or are not doing as a kind of long-held notion within the competitive TF2 community that only the pros should be talking about stuff.

It's also my opinion that you're better not having a forum than having it awash in trolling. Maybe I'm just too old for that kind of behavior, but to me there's nothing of worth in trolling.

Great point. But when you say "freely," you also mean trolling, alts, and assorted hooplah only from an ESEA standpoint. My belief is that the fetishization of ESEA skill levels, and an ESEA-only forum, doesn't do anything for the community at large. If I understand you correctly, that's the point: NATF2 is about a group of ESEA players, no more, no less. CommFT, on the other hand, devotes itself to the titular attribute: community involvement. There, perhaps, is the greater divide.

Zigzter

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ESEA is the only league taken seriously by serious 6v6 players though.

Even people around my skill level (low to mid Open) poke fun at leagues like UGC and TWL.

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MileHighMilitia

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the point is that trolling comes with the territory of being a popular, open forum. not very many people would argue that trolling itself actually contributes to good discussion, but instead it is a consequence of actually having a popular forum where people can speak freely.

the fact remains that as a content creation site, aside from the youtube videos done by extv and others commft offers nothing to mid to high level players in the way of interesting content. Things like "Screaming Eagles", highlander content, UGC, and stuff like that simply wont garner any interest from the hardcore 6v6 community that resides at natf2. All/most of the good youtube content made here is reposted on natf2 anyways.

natf2 isnt inherently for esea players, just generally is populated with the hardcore 6v6 scene where most everyone plays esea.

Scholar

Points: 661, Level: 13

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I always thought it was wierd that most of the tf2 community is spread out. Well, traders do need their own spot but everyone else just goes to different websites. Starcraft 2 is all stuffed in teamliquid.net and they are doing great. Having good players and not so good (bad) players together does cripple the ability to have intelligent discussions but it also stimulates less skilled players to get better and to follow the competitive scene.

Free

Points: 4,384, Level: 44

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That's a huge generalization. I think it would be safer to say that certain cliques of 6s players poke fun at other leagues; you might get the same treatment from players in those leagues as well.

What bothers me is what Scholar said: there's no reason all levels of the TF2 community can't mingle. I don't believe that it "cripples" serious discussion at all; high-level players may not learn from low-level players, but the flip side promotes a healthy, interactive community.

Zigzter

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I didn't say "everyone around my skill level". Either way, you have to admit there's a skill gap between ESEA-O and other leagues. If we're keeping with the SC2 theme, it's like comparing the Korean ladder to the North American ladder.

In response to Scholar: I'm pretty sure nowhere near the entire SC2 community is represented at TeamLiquid. Reddit has a huge SC2 community, for one.

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Shwan

Points: 1,990, Level: 27

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First off how dare you put a "C" in my name fcree!

Your right that people outside the scene should be able to write about it, however the question was why aren't the people from natf2 interested. The answer to that is no one on this site can provide a perspective that that crowd of people finds interesting.

I liked your Philadelphia Inquirer example and I can use it to try and illustrate my point. His articles at the inquirer appeal to a very mainstream base of people which is huge in the case of football and small in the case of tf2. The question is why aren't the people who hang around tom Brady (natf2) interested in the inquirer (commft)? The answer is they know more about the game they play than mr.philly does and because of that don't find his content interesting, HOWEVER his writing is wonderful for everyone else.

lets say MGE and eXtv both shoutcast the same match which probably happened a few times. I can guarantee you that all of natf2 was watching MGE and the rest were watching eXtv. eXtv while great isn't nearly as interesting to the hardcore people as MGE, because MGE had big names whose insights weren't useless to a comp player.

that is why natf2 people don't currently find this site worth visiting. Now would it be better for the community if we all magically moved over here so we could have one unified community? yes, but the majority of people wont go to a place they don't like, even if it could be better for the bigger picture.

Mile clarified what i was trying to say about this very well so i'll quote him as an answer to you.

-----------------------

SC2 is a very different thing as their community is much much larger and more active than tf2's, because of this its fine for there to be some segregation.

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Vector Gaming

Scholar

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Yeah, because it overgrew. Like...by a LOT. Like a year ago, when sc2 was booming but it was still being followed by players mostly the community was all teamliquid. Now, a lot of non-players follow it and thats why you have communities in reddit and stuff. But out of those kids, only like 10% play the game and I promise you, they have a TL account and regularly visit the site.

And in response to free, if for some reason the high mid and low skilled players were on the same place, if I saw a high level player discussion I would just not post and only listen and grin all the time for the knowledge that is being shared. But i guess I see your point, some low level player who thinks he is smart might post in a thread and ruin it.

Zigzter

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Fair enough, but fundamentally (ignoring the genre difference) SC2 and TF2 are vastly different.

SC2 was designed from the ground up for eSports, and the majority of "casual" SC2 players still know popular pro names and follow the tournaments.

TF2 is made for casual pubbing fun, and the competitive community is extremely different and divided (and tiny) from the general pub community.

Regarding your response to Free, I think people just find it frustrating to have to interact with people like the eXtv highlander discussion participants, who think the Wrangler isn't overpowered because it forces teamwork.
(God that still irks me.)

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Hawkeye

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The big problem I see with the "Philadelphia Inquirer" example is one basic thing, the average sports writer does not write their piece for the players, but for the fan base of that. Some of the players actually read it but that is not who it is catering to. As previously pointed out, NATF2.com is players in ESEA-O and up generally where you read the articles on CommFt geared toward the lower skills/pub players and simply have a reaction of "Well Duh" or occasional "That is completely wrong"..

For higher skilled players, it is very good to read articles from or discuss with higher skilled players to get some input you may not already know. CommFt has some very good articles in the past that appealed more to that crowd, but generall that does not happen. (Example: Articles with top soldiers from NA and Europe a few seasons ago, I think Jeager was one of them).

Graham

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Yea we are trying to bring some of that type of articles back as part of our 2012 push. We may be having boulder come on board to head up our ESEA coverage and he will be doing more in-depth articles that would appeal like those old time "roundtable" articles did to the top players.

Free

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Great points, though I want to add that great sports writing pushes sports in general forward, much in the way that eXtv has pushed competitive TF2 forward: not only into the public discourse, but to a higher standard of presentation.

And frankly, SCCCHWANO, you're right: the division between the two isn't one of animosity, it's one of skill and already knowing the information posted by less experienced players. And that's one of the things we're addressing with the hiring push.

Shwan

Points: 1,990, Level: 27

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I wish you the best of luck in your hiring although since natf2 is huge and very active right now, I wouldn't be surprised if they opened up a news section in the not to distant future.

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Vector Gaming

mustardoverlord

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the problem with the sports writer analogy is that the experience and/or skill of the writer is irrelevant, what matters is the knowledge behind what they're espousing

football is a big enough thing that even sports writers who have never played the game at anything more than a college or even less level can still have a deep understanding of the flow of the game and the theory behind this or that strategy, as well as know each player well and how he impacts his team. regardless of whether such knowledge is known by a tf2 writer (whether on commft, mge, extv, or eseanews), I rarely see such in-depth analysis. you have a few guys like oplaid or djc or drogo who played in the division at hand and thus were able to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of each team fairly well, but that seems to be beyond the means for most writers, or at least something they find unsavory or too complicated (it's not a full-time job, after all). still, some writers come closer than others, and I don't think I've ever seen such good coverage from commft (or at least not for a REALLY long time, like I guess djfivenine was pretty thorough when he wrote here TWO YEARS AGO).

steelfirez

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Mustardoverlord, or anybody else who wishes to help.
Could anybody give me an example of an article that was good or thorough? Alternately, give me an idea of what I could write about?
I'd like to improve my writing, so that's why I"m asking.

Zigzter

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Coverage of ESEA-O and above, interviews with ESEA-IM and above, strategy talk with top IM and above.

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mustardoverlord

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here's an example for open:

http://www.extelevision.com/esea-ope...ns-snakewater/

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

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I wanted to post some mge stuff for IM/Invite but the site is officially down for good now

Scholar

Points: 661, Level: 13

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Wait what? why? Nooooooo

mustardoverlord

Points: 3,784, Level: 40

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costs money to pay for hosting man, if they're not making new content they can't justify charging money for subscriptions and if they don't charge money they don't wanna pay for the site

steelfirez

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well, if mge is down for good, and they're not charging for their content anymore, does anybody have a copy of their content?
Also, to mustardoverlord: What types of interviews are you looking for from IM players?
Also, are you looking for the interviews like the roundtable ones that Commft used to do?

mustardoverlord

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going point-by-point

-idk about the MGE articles, but skyride uploaded most if not all of the videos to his channel
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...0&feature=plcp

-it was zigzter who brought up interviews, but I'd want them to be in-depth and force the interviewee to give more than a 5 word answer

I actually did an interview series myself for the s8 open playoffs, I'll post that I suppose:

http://eseanews.com/tf2/index.php?s=...mments&id=9428
http://eseanews.com/tf2/index.php?s=...mments&id=9429

I wouldn't expect it to be that long, but it should have thought-provoking questions/responses

-as for the roundtable, that would more be a special article for a group of VERY high level players (invite exclusively or invite and high IM), who all play the same class (or maybe all main callers or something, but they need an important feature in common)

otherwise, an interview's focus should PROBABLY be more about the team than the specific player being interviewed

steelfirez

Points: 798, Level: 15

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Would these be the types of articles your looking for?
roundtables
http://communityfortress.com/tf2/blo...euro-remix.php
http://communityfortress.com/tf2/blo...roundtable.php
http://communityfortress.com/tf2/blo...roundtable.php

Interviews
Graham did this series.
http://communityfortress.com/tf2/lea...ws-harbleu.php

oh, and to shwan and zigzter(maybe it wasn't you). Would the articles that you guys wrote for COmmft be the type of content you're looking for?