New Ranking System?

Viper · 11-07-2010, 12:15 AM

Every single day someone refers to the ranking system in competitive Team Fortress 2. The problem is everyone seems to be under the conclusion that the ranking system is bad, yet I haven't really seen anyone try to change it. I feel the problem is that there are not enough ranks. I am debating proposing a new ranking system that has more ranks, and each rank corresponds with with a league and certain DM related skill. This is a serious post, suggestions recommendations and ideas are welcome.

Discuss...

Swift · 11-07-2010, 01:15 AM

I say make a ranking system based on individual skill, not what teams you were on or what leagues you've competed in. You can be the most sh*t n00b playing for (lets say) eMg or Complexity, you can win season champions for all we care. You're probably getting carried by the rest of the team anyway. You can join different leagues, but if you're only facing people on the same level as you (even the same teams also joining different leagues), it's the same thing. eMg vs. coL on CEVO and eMg vs. coL on ESEA is still and only eMg vs. coL. It only depends on the team if they take one league more seriously or not and actually try.

DM, gamesense, situational awareness, class mastery, all that jazz. Team chemistry is a whole 'nother story.

Some people who advertise themselves as low/mid are without league experience. They rely on their individual skill. You know its true.

Well, that's how I see it.

DeathBySnuSnu · 11-07-2010, 01:32 AM

I agree with Swift's desire but then becomes an implementation problem how do we accurately decide a players individual skill level and give supporting facts to prove it

Fish #641 · 11-07-2010, 01:54 AM

Uhh, it's just about, if not entirely, impossible to judge a player's skill outside of his team. Skill doesn't exist in a vacuum.

SuicideSwitch · 11-07-2010, 01:01 AM

I agree with fish. this whole skill system is also kinda wonky, how good your dm is, we rate this against whom? the scale is arbitrary. Also who gives a damn how good your dm or game sense is if you can't work with a team. We discount players on a daily basis calling them ragers and people who are unpleasant to deal with so who cares that they rape face I won't deal with them.

ManBearPig · 11-07-2010, 02:18 AM

theres no way that the rating system will ever change

Zigzter · 11-07-2010, 02:20 AM

We should just rank by what league division you're in, or could compete in, like CSS does. (Correct me if I'm wrong on the CSS part)

Swift · 11-07-2010, 03:28 AM

Like I said, team chemistry is a whole 'nother story. Isolating someone's skill on a team hard..really, really hard. Too much factors.

CHE · 11-07-2010, 09:37 AM

Imo, ranking and skill level is to just help a new player get started. Once you are known in the community and have been on the same team (in which they have progressed as a whole like making playoffs in well known leagues) for two three seasons you can push for mid to mid+. Now the only way you can say your mid is if you have played on playoff teams and have ascended from TWL Div 3 or if your in the top 4 of UGC (maybe top 3).

If your looking to change a system, I doubt it will be successful. Again you never know though. Low- Low-mid - mid-low- mid+....see it gets retarded

Low (-/+) Mid (-/+) High

We don't have enough teams to make a case yet like in Europe. The only way I consider pushing for mid is if your team has been together for 1-2 seasons making the playoffs.

People will just call their themselves mid and keep going with it and either get trolled or just keep pushing their case (which at times works for them, for about 4 or 5 months). Again people have that raw talent and they do what it takes to play in pugs with other well-known people of this community.

Bodknocks · 11-07-2010, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viper

Every single day someone refers to the ranking system in competitive Team Fortress 2. The problem is everyone seems to be under the conclusion that the ranking system is bad, yet I haven't really seen anyone try to change it.

There have been people who have tried to change it before, and the response has always been the same: the system we have now is fine. I disagree with you where you say everyone thinks the system is bad. I think most people are fine with the way things are done right now. The truth is, any sort of ranking system is going to be stupid and full of contentious nerds screaming, "mid/low, more like low/mid- LOL". That's not a problem with what we have, that's a problem with having any artificial rating system in a team-based game with hundreds of teams across several leagues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viper

I feel the problem is that there are not enough ranks. I am debating proposing a new ranking system that has more ranks, and each rank corresponds with with a league and certain DM related skill.

I think the ranks are fine. If you really wanted to group every team into a ranking that only includes the teams that give them a really good game, you'd have like 500 skill rankings. And honestly just by practicing and getting better together as a team, you could climb two or three rankings every night. That system seems kind of bad compared to what we have now, and would lead to even more dumb arguments ("we're not low/mid-, we're mid-/mid-low++").

It's true that the skill rating system we have is pretty lop-sided, like a pyramid or something. Just guessing off the top of my head here, I think there's about 6 high teams, 6 mid/high teams, 6 mid+ teams, then about 20 mid teams and 100 low/mid teams. I guess that may seems counter-intuitive, but the fact of the matter is, the further up the skill ladder you go, the fewer teams there are that can give you a good match.

The bottom line is, the system is not perfect but it's only used for is getting scrims and looking for teams. That's about it. Obsessing over your skill level is bad, and trying to change the system is pointless. What we have now works just fine.

defiance · 11-07-2010, 01:15 PM

I think people care way too much about it. A lot of people are also extremely cocky and get really upset when somebody says they aren't as good as they think.

And no matter how you phrase it, the system will never be good. Somebody will always over rate themselves, somebody will always underrate themselves, somebody will always think somebody isn't the rating they give themselves.

Basically, don't worry about it, it doesn't really matter what you are, it won't hurt your chances of finding a team, you don't even have to give your skill level, just give your experience. Experience is really all the skill level is, if you are mid, you've prolly been playing for a few seasons, if you are low/mid you are prolly new, and haven't really gone past lobbies and what not. People think they go on gotfrag and "get trolled" and that is why they don't have a team. When in reality it is just because people don't like playing with them, or they have an extremely horrible attitude. There are a few threads that come to mind.

defiance · 11-07-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zigzter

We should just rank by what league division you're in, or could compete in, like CSS does. (Correct me if I'm wrong on the CSS part)

Bad idea IMO, seeing as there are only two divisions in NA TF2 that have any type of skill limit on getting in. That being ESEA-I and ESEA-IM. Ever other division is open to everyone. Saying you are looking for an esea-o team could honestly mean going from a low team, to a mid (maybe mid+) team, given how esea is right now. There are better teams in cevo-a right now, then there are in cevo-m. So it is pretty difficult to judge somebody just off of what league they were in. Best way to do it is to know what team they were in, how that team did, and how they did on that team. Which is basically what people do anyways, when somebody says they are "blah blah" they look at their past teams, and see if they really have the experience to play for their team or not.

I think people over think the skill rank thing way too much. It is kind of one of those things players concern themselves with too much, instead of worrying about getting good.

Zigzter · 11-07-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by defiance

Bad idea IMO, seeing as there are only two divisions in NA TF2 that have any type of skill limit on getting in. That being ESEA-I and ESEA-IM. Ever other division is open to everyone. Saying you are looking for an esea-o team could honestly mean going from a low team, to a mid (maybe mid+) team, given how esea is right now. There are better teams in cevo-a right now, then there are in cevo-m. So it is pretty difficult to judge somebody just off of what league they were in. Best way to do it is to know what team they were in, how that team did, and how they did on that team. Which is basically what people do anyways, when somebody says they are "blah blah" they look at their past teams, and see if they really have the experience to play for their team or not.

I think people over think the skill rank thing way too much. It is kind of one of those things players concern themselves with too much, instead of worrying about getting good.

Well include your team's (possible) rough placement then.

I wouldn't consider somebody in invite being impressive when their team is 0 - 16.

Hawkeye · 11-07-2010, 02:18 PM

I still don't really believe there ever needs to be a statement of ones personal skill. Say the teams you played for, and what leagues. If others remember you great, otherwise they don't the skill debate is basically useless anyway other then turning off teams that might be looking to recruit.

Most teams are paying attention, when someone posts a looking thread, they think to the matches they remember with that team, may pull a server log and check the stats/chat logs. What one states their skill as is basically useless.

If players I am familiar with post and say, this guy is worth looking at, that is more interesting.

The ONLY time the skill question is really relevant At all is when you are pulling a scrim in and want a rough judge with an unfamiliar team, but even then it isn't usually all that accurate.

Seriously, people spend way to much time debating these things.

SealClubber · 11-08-2010, 04:23 AM

I'm with hawkeye on this one. There's really no need to claim how good you think you are at video games. What teams really want to know and should be looking for is your experience in 6 v 6 and experience in leagues.

Cash50 · 11-08-2010, 08:13 AM

I figured out how you judge skill.

On badlands mid, suicide into the other team. Depending on how many you kill your skill lvl is as follows.

0 = low-
0 on second attempt = bad
1 = low
2= low/mid
3= mid-
4= mid
5= mid +
6= high

Medics you are ranked on how many Ubers you have charged.

0= low-
10= low
100= low/mid
1000= mid
10000=mid+
100000= high

Viper · 11-08-2010, 01:01 PM

What I seem to be getting out of this is that there are a lot of differing opinions, and that is isn't worth changing because there are way to many factors variables and levels of rating someones skill. A silly ranking system could never account for someone's game sense, maturity or personality in the mumble. I firmly believe team chemistry is disregarded way too many times. Anyways I think we can put this thread to rest actually.

SealClubber · 11-08-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cash50

I figured out how you judge skill.

On badlands mid, suicide into the other team. Depending on how many you kill your skill lvl is as follows.

0 = low-
0 on second attempt = bad
1 = low
2= low/mid
3= mid-
4= mid
5= mid +
6= high

Medics you are ranked on how many Ubers you have charged.

0= low-
10= low
100= low/mid
1000= mid
10000=mid+
100000= high

This is a terrible system for a lot of reasons... The most important one being it ignores the quality of players you are playing with.

Sway · 11-08-2010, 02:08 PM

SealClubber -- that's a bad post he jacked from GotFrag. Don't mind Cash50 :)

Cash50 · 11-09-2010, 08:04 AM

I just wanted to see what you guys would say about that system. :)

Zigzter · 11-09-2010, 12:08 PM

Well it seems like quite a few people think we should have no ranking system and just state what league experience you have....but doesn't that come down to the ranking system again?

Because, correct me if I'm wrong, the whole ranking system is based on your experience, not "skill".

But of course, everyone is mid now, so I guess the system is useless.

Hawkeye · 11-09-2010, 03:11 PM

I look at it this way..

I am looking for a Recruit and someone I have never seen or heard of..

1) I am a Mid- player

-or-

2) I play for xx, yy as a zz in league aa and so forth.

The second one is more interesting since I can look at team records, pull some stats, maybe STVs from ESEA and see how things work.

If we simply drop the player saying I am mid and give us something we can actually use, simply better IMHO.

mrslin · 11-10-2010, 09:36 AM

This is a real conversation I had with a potential mentee just 10 minutes ago:

KOS | MR SLIN: so what skill level are you would you say?
XXXXXXXXXXX: I'm like low/mid- but the team I'm on is low/mid.
KOS | MR SLIN: wait so are you low/mid or mid-
XXXXXXXXXXX: well I used to be low/mid mid but my DM isn't as good anymore so I guess right now I'm probably low/mid maybe even low+. I used to be better before my hiatus but now I'm not as good.
KOS | MR SLIN: erm....k

if we all had a chance to redo the system we'd probably change it to something better, but at least we understand it right now, even if I've never heard anyone say low/mid mid before.

[edit] +1 for bodknocks

Zigzter · 11-10-2010, 12:24 PM

Geez, he was getting a little over-specific.

But see, that's one problem with this system. Some people rank based on skill (like that guy), and others rank based on league experience.
..and really, they don't really relate.

League-wise I'm definitely low (playing first comp season in TWL), but I can compete on a low/mid team.

mrslin · 11-10-2010, 12:39 PM

hm...i guess that makes me low too. i've only ever played CEVO-A, TWL, and UGC lol

Nightbox · 11-11-2010, 02:42 AM

Viper, ive added you on steam. I would be happy to listen to your ideas and implement them on TF2MM.

Bikini · 11-17-2010, 10:56 PM

is there a level that's below low-? pretty sure i fit into that category now

jiggawhat · 11-18-2010, 12:05 AM

There doesnt need to be a rating system. Everyone can tell who is good and who is bad and usually you try out a player anyways.

32tim32 · 11-18-2010, 12:07 AM

Below low- I believe is something like low gay... idk.

Anyways I hate the labels on the systems as it is. I never understand the whole low/mid mid/low thing, which sucks because that's around my skill level. I don't know why we make easier letter or number categories, but that's never going to happen. Also skill level for individual players... well yeah there is no bar in tf2 of skill. Maybe if a player permanently plateaued and kept on playing we could us him, but I doubt he would stay long if he was the new ranking system.

I don't think there really is a solution for all this...

mrslin · 11-18-2010, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikini

is there a level that's below low-? pretty sure i fit into that category now

it's called gay+ and i think that describes you perfectly

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