Hawkeye

Points: 5,054, Level: 48

Activity: 50.0%

In the case of coldfront, it got tried in ESEA and the vast majroty of the players really disliked the map.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

You must be new here. People in the community know maps suck because we fucking play them. Usually, when a new map comes out, everyone loves it at first, and is really excited. However, then they play it, and realize it sucks. Also, everyone wants new maps, nobody likes playing badlands over and over again. Most people are very willing to try new maps, but when they are bad, they are bad. CEVO and ESEA played mainline, they didn't think it sucked until they actually played it.

For a smart person you are pretty stupid wander.

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

Activity: 21.2%

Yeah, Coldfront was probably the best example of a map everyone wanted to love until they actually played it. And who could blame them? Visually the map is fantastic, arguably better-looking than any Valve-made map. Gameplay-wise, though, it's just not very fun for 6v6 play.

The same pretty much went for Mainline, although that did seem to gain a bit of steam for a while. I do think the new version of Mainline (rc6) has a chance to pick up a foothold in the competitive community, as they widened all the hallways to make the map much, much less spammy and also redid last completely and changed mid significantly.

The idea that competitive players don't want to embrace new maps is ludicrous. We accepted Gullywash almost instantly because, unlike most other custom maps, it's actually really fun, well-balanced, and great for competitive play. Similarly, Freight and Follower still see rotation spots for the same reasons.

If someone out there makes a good competitive map, we will play it and most of us will love it. The problem is that most custom maps just aren't that good, at least for 6v6 competitive play.

Also, my favorite map right now is Gullywash, a custom map, so your argument is invalid.

oblivion

Points: 1,001, Level: 18

Activity: 33.3%

someone make another thread when REG is open and title it registration for tgl open so i dont have to read this thread.

Fish #641

Points: 2,875, Level: 34

Activity: 0%

Actually Gullywash didn't catch on at all when it was first introduced around...3(?) seasons back. A majority of maps are hated before they've really been played, or at least are approached with a, "Oh fuck, great. We have to learn a new fucking custom map this week and no one will want to scrim on it because they haven't downloaded it."

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

When cevo/esea were playing new maps (such as gully, coldfront, mainline) you could really only find scrims for those maps.

Alis1337

Points: 4,344, Level: 44

Activity: 8.3%

Truth. Especially, when the map that week was different for both leagues. You have some looking for scrims for X map and others for Y map.

__________________
-tragic.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

Activity: 18.2%

Is there really a debate about maps anymore?

It seems like the opinion just about everyone agrees on is badlands-granary-gravelpit-gullywash-viaduct-yukon

And coldfront - since when did the majority of players hate it? I haven't seen anything to indicate that most people hated it, I've heard a lot of praise for it from many players. There is a lot of hate for coldfront on this forum, though.

wanderrful

Points: 5,659, Level: 51

Activity: 0%

umm... what?

have you been to tf2pug.na or gotfrag lately? the community hates trying new things. jiggawhat even went so far as to call this website "idealist", for fuck sakes. hell, i even distinctly remember that when i played i spectated tf2.pug.na matches on cp_obscure everyone who played it spent the entire fucking time hating on it! don't give that bullshit, son!

for god sakes, what you said implies that you've never even heard the phrase "its not badlands"! what a fucking troll man.

when i was a moderator here, you couldn't warn trolls. the only thing that had the word "trolling" in it on the punishment list was "permanent, automatic ban" (or something to that effect). where the fuck did my hammer go?

plus, when you said that cevo/esea were scrimming new maps (although last i checked, esea doesn't have tf2 scrims)... who do you think helped usher in that temporary open-mindedness in the community by bringing in those custom maps? we were the ones who introduced a lot of those maps to the competitive commmunity by holding tf2pug matches and tf2lobbies on them to gauge peoples' first impressions and talking at length about them at meetings!


so take a look in the fucking mirror



and for the record mainline was overwhelmingly requested by the community against my and everyone else in the map testing team's suggestion, not the map-testing group that i lead

swaty is a nice guy from what i've gathered, but the guys in the group did not think that it was better than the maps we picked and so we didn't include it.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

sorry, only read until the point you started crying like a 2 year old about banning me, grow up kid and deal with it

Also....you are seriously the easiest person to ever bait in the world if you seriously think that "it's not badlands" is a true serious statement, god damn, no wonder you cry about trolls, every comment that everybody can easily see is a troll statement you take seriously

I was excited for obscure, until I played it a few more times. It isn't a very good map. I'm actually always excited for new maps.

And you need to take some reading comprehension classes....everyone in esea does scrims, the leagues don't hold the scrims themselves, they were scrimming the maps that were scheduled

and why are you surprised nobody listens to you

Here is my sweet "proof" about how "smart" wander is http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/forums/thread/430435/

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

Activity: 21.2%

Sometimes the problem is that we try new things like cp_indulge, and that tends to turn us off to trying other new things. :D

Fish #641

Points: 2,875, Level: 34

Activity: 0%

A couple of things:
Keep your fucking bitch fests to yourselves.
Cevo season 4, when gullywash_b6 was played during preseason- everyone hated gullywash. We could only find one or two scrims prior to playing our match on it.
Yukon is not a fun map. It flows terribly and is only in our rotation because it has been bashed against our heads long enough for us to develop some semblance of a metagame around it, much like freight.

jiggawhat

Points: 1,641, Level: 24

Activity: 18.2%

Yukon rocks gg

wanderrful

Points: 5,659, Level: 51

Activity: 0%

okay so why exactly was my last post deleted?

Hawkeye

Points: 5,054, Level: 48

Activity: 50.0%

Not deleted, unapproved, I still see it. Reason, it simply had zero to do with the TGL or the original post.

wanderrful

Points: 5,659, Level: 51

Activity: 0%

it had to do with the previous replies. if this is your criterion for unapproving posts, i'd suggest that you re-read this page of the thread. specifically defiance's posts.

and if all i have to do is say something on topic not to have a post unapproved, then allow me to edit in a phrase about cp_obscure or something.

if that doesn't work, then perhaps you should consider editing everyone's posts to censor non-relevant comments.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

Hawkeye doing it up :)

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

Well it was preseason, nobody really cares about preseason so I'm not surprised. I even saw people looking for scrims on indulge when TWL was playing it. Obviously they didn't take the cool route and just play a different map instead.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

Bodknocks

Points: 2,419, Level: 31

Activity: 0%

Uh, back on topic, I think these maps are a must if you are to be taken even the least bit serious:

cp_badlands
cp_granary
cp_gravelpit

These are probably the safest bets right now:

koth_viaduct
cp_gullywash
cp_freight_final1

You won't get consensus on anything else, much less these, but if I were to guess I'd say the next most popular ones would be (neither of which is particularly well liked):

cp_yukon
cp_coldfront

After that it's hard to tell what other maps are even remotely agreed upon. Maybe people still want to play Mainline and Obscure? There are rumors abound that the new PLR might get played competitively. Some people still cling to the old broken version of Freight for whatever reason. Then again some people want Follower and Well to make a comeback. Turbine still has a lot of support but is probably the most polarizing map of all of them. What's left, Gorge? Jesus, why can't Valve make another 5-Point CP map as awesome as Badlands and save us all the trouble.

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

Activity: 21.2%

I think cp_freight is miles better than cp_freight_final1. I don't care if the new version is an official map now, it still sucks compared to the original. The last point in the new version completely neuters snipers and makes the last point too prone to stalemates.

I like the set-up of the warehouse in the new one, but last is just awful.

Fish #641

Points: 2,875, Level: 34

Activity: 0%

hahahaha implying that the old version of freight didn't stalemate. At least he fixed the respawn timer attacking last.

Hawkeye

Points: 5,054, Level: 48

Activity: 50.0%

On that particular, I actually prefer the last point, as it's now viable to push out fromt he sniper area and not get trapped in choke, so the Demoman cannot relay on stickies on the garage for defense. Put's more options in there, but it does take coordination now since movement from 2-1 is a bit more complex then it was.

But he is correct, TGL is going to need to modify the season maplist, you have to make the players and teams happy for the most part, you likely only have one week to try a new map.

Hawkeye

Points: 5,054, Level: 48

Activity: 50.0%

Actually, I wanted to comment on this in the last post..

Preseason is generally ignored by most teams, so the map feeling good or bad from preseason are effectively useless to base anyhting off of. A season game hold more weight since most teams played it and to some degree it counted.

If you want to use experimental maps, drop one in during the season. If you want it taken seriously at the expense of pissing of players, schedule it during the back third of the season when playoffs are a significant issue, otherwise the front third or middle.

But the end of the day, the teams/players need to want to play on most of the maps otherwise your stacking the deck against yourself pretty quickly.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

This may be some what true. However, enough people played gorge in cevo preseason to know that it sucked balls for competitive. So i still think a map should be introduced into preseason, instead of just thrown into the rotation, like mainline was.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it

SealClubber

Points: 2,301, Level: 31

Activity: 0%

I nominate hawkeye to work for TGL/CEVO/TWL... Anywhere. The leagues need more hawkeye.

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

Activity: 21.2%

Yeah the new respawn timer is nice, but attacking last in the new version is just awful.

improperdancing

Points: 380, Level: 7

Activity: 21.2%

I am okay with this tactic if the teams playing actually vote to include the map (kind of like how ESEA included Mainline and Coldfront last season because we all wanted to check them out), but if you go the TWL route and just throw in a map despite the fact that it's awful and no one wants to play it (Indulge), it usually ends in disaster.

Seriously...those forty minutes of Indulge were probably forty of my least favorite minutes of Team Fortress 2. I had more fun getting rolled by pac in the Alienware tournament than I did on that map, and we won on Indulge.

wanderrful

Points: 5,659, Level: 51

Activity: 0%

i got ripped off itt for no apparent reason

shdw.puppet

Points: 3,599, Level: 39

Activity: 66.7%

I say that, instead of viaduct, we do koth_asheville, mackey's map. It is loads better than viaduct, not as pretty and not as sniper dominant, but I think it is more conducive to good 6v6 play.

And has anyone tried the new unfinished valve map yet? I wont be trying to texture it because my skills at that are nearly non existant, but I am eventually going to walk through it and see how she plays.

defiance

Points: 2,864, Level: 34

Activity: 8.3%

I don't think there is any reason to replaced viaduct. asheville looks like a decent map, but why replace vduct? Viaduct is a very solid map, we should be using asheville to replace a bad map, like mainline or yukon.

__________________
1:22 AM - caidh: fuck why am i still up
1:22 AM - defiance: lets pub
1:23 AM - caidh: shit no
1:23 AM - defiance: i was sleepy
1:23 AM - defiance: but i took a huge shit
1:23 AM - defiance: go try it