XPL - Post here if you want the Crit-a-Cola, Paintrain and Home Wrecker allowed. - Page 3

Bikini · 05-17-2010, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hablah

wow mr doom and gloom, you sir are creating a shit storm out of nothing. yes it can hurt, but so can a soldier demo combo sharing uber, or 2 soldiers, or pretty much any 2. would it be the end of the world if people stopped pushing with uber soldiers? would it upset your fragile view of how people SHOULD PLAY THIS GAME? omg CHANGE?!?! RUN FOR THE HILLS BILLY!!!!!!

if you think that all competitive game play is uber soldiers or demo in and kill then you got it wrong.

I don't mind changing the dynamic aspect of the game but when teams begin to run 5 scouts and a medic something is wrong. the reason that competitive team play developed into classlimits of the 1 demo 1 med 2 sollies and 2 scout is that this standard setup is very versatile overall dynamic and fun. the point of the scout becomes not to watch flanks and getting picks.

chances of landing a direct pipe or rocket on a good scout before he shoots 2 scatterguns? fat chance u get 2 shotted with the critacola

Quote:

Originally Posted by defiancd

keep the sandman banned, the rest shouldn't even be considered, unless it is because nobody is getting the drop

Crit-a-Cola isn't that amazing. Simple focus fire will destroy it, it certainly isn't game changing at all. Maybe you guys have totally forgotten how a scout plays, last time i checked there aren't going to be any scouts sniping people from bats or something. The only way a scout can be useful is getting up close, what also hurts up close? Rockets. What hurts even more up close when you are taking mini-crits, rockets. I think it is a good trade off, you get mini crits, but people get mini crits on you.

As for the "oh god oh god scouts are going to be ubered." Ever heard of a counter uber? IDK about you bikini, but I'm pretty sure if the other team has an uber, and your team doesn't, you don't play close. So it wouldn't really matter, because if a medic ubered a scout with mini crits your action would be simple. A) Counter Uber. B) You are already backed off a little, wait for the scout to get out of medigun range and then get free mini crits on an alone scout.

As far as both scouts running it, I could only see an advantage with this in a scout v scout area. If both scouts ran crit-a-cola they would basically always be 1 scout down because they are suiciding. So there is your advantage to take the flanks.

No reason for it to be banned, one of the few unlocks that actually has a good negative side.

Now the question is do a medic drop more often to scatterguns or rockets?

kyzzak · 05-17-2010, 10:08 PM

Bikini, if you think CaC is so OP, then just run that strat in all of your matches. Maybe you will win every match; or maybe your opponent finds a counter.

Theres more to TF2 than just numbers.

Bikini · 05-17-2010, 10:19 PM

do i get to run 5 scouts with CaC and a med? i Love turning corners and just one shooting people with 2 scouts!

Hawkeye · 05-17-2010, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikini

do i get to run 5 scouts with CaC and a med? i Love turning corners and just one shooting people with 2 scouts!

The class limits are not going anywhere and is simply an invalid argument on more levels then I care to spell out right now.

In preseason at XPL you will have the option of having two CaC scouts so we can see how it affects the overall game. If it is truly overpowered, you should be able to take on much stronger teams successfully with those equipped right?

Cigs · 05-17-2010, 10:39 PM

Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly without minicrits : 3
Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly with minicrits: 3

You can only one shot 125hp classes. Also, last time I checked there are class limits and even if there weren't no team is going to run a medic and five scouts. That's retarded.

Bikini · 05-17-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

In preseason at XPL you will have the option of having two CaC scouts so we can see how it affects the overall game. If it is truly overpowered, you should be able to take on much stronger teams successfully with those equipped right?

wrong the stronger team would use the same tactic then

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigs

Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly without minicrits : 3
Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly with minicrits: 3

that doesn't usually happen unless both medics have uber and its @ a standstill on granary yard.

Cigs · 05-18-2010, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Cigs
Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly without minicrits : 3
Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly with minicrits: 3

"that doesn't usually happen unless both medics have uber and its @ a standstill on granary yard."

Wut? That doesn't even make any sort of sense.

Jesus · 05-18-2010, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigs

Originally Posted by Cigs
Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly without minicrits : 3
Min number of scatter shots to kill a 300hp solly with minicrits: 3

"that doesn't usually happen unless both medics have uber and its @ a standstill on granary yard."

Wut? That doesn't even make any sort of sense.

Ignore it, Bikini likes to talk about things he doesn't understand. The Crit-a-cola is not overpowered in any way, there is a huge risk to using it so it's hardly like a press button to win tool.

Cigs · 05-18-2010, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus

Ignore it, Bikini likes to talk about things he doesn't understand. The Crit-a-cola is not overpowered in any way, there is a huge risk to using it so it's hardly like a press button to win tool.

Aww man, there goes my 5-scout-split-uber-crit-a-cola-of-death strat I was going to use to get to invite.

Apples · 05-18-2010, 12:41 AM

im proud to say, in the week of scrims since crit a cola, including lobbies with retarded europeans, my medic has never dropped uber to a cac scout. in fact, i don't know if one's even died to those fuckers. they're ridiculously easy to kill.

defiance · 05-18-2010, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus

Ignore it, Bikini likes to talk about things he doesn't understand.

Wow, finally somebody I can agree with on this board.

Quote:

Now the question is do a medic drop more often to scatterguns or rockets?

I don't see any relevance in the question. Scout aren't going to be over powered, maybe in the hands of carnage the crit-o-cola is extremely unbalanced, but most scouts aren't extremely accurate like him, so it isn't going to be extremely game changing. I don't think we will see ubered scouts, because scouts are extremely easy to keep juggled in a choke.

~~xenema~~ · 05-18-2010, 01:07 AM

wait for rulings by CEVO/ESEA

but in the mean time the league will be better off going by precedent which is not allowing new unlocks for a full season

worthless/overpowered really doesn't make a difference; quite a few people still don't have access to the items yet.

Bikini · 05-18-2010, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apples

im proud to say, in the week of scrims since crit a cola, including lobbies with retarded europeans, my medic has never dropped uber to a cac scout. in fact, i don't know if one's even died to those fuckers. they're ridiculously easy to kill.

Lobbies truely represent Competitive tf2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by defiancd

I don't see any relevance in the question. Scout aren't going to be over powered, maybe in the hands of carnage the crit-o-cola is extremely unbalanced, but most scouts aren't extremely accurate like him, so it isn't going to be extremely game changing. I don't think we will see ubered scouts, because scouts are extremely easy to keep juggled in a choke.

Scouts are already overpowered why give them more?
Its not that they get juggled, because when a ubered soldier or a demoman gets juggled they can shoot and one can dodge the projectiles easier but you still cant dodge bullets nor do you know if that scout can surf that rocket so he gets a boost towards your medic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cigs

"that doesn't usually happen unless both medics have uber and its @ a standstill on granary yard."

Wut? That doesn't even make any sort of sense.

After a team cap granary mid and the other team manage to regroup in yard with an uber there tends to be a min or so stalemate where both teams try to get a pick then move in.
because rarely a soldier has a constant 300 unless the medic only ubered him or the match currently at a peek war(granary example!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus

Ignore it, Bikini likes to talk about things he doesn't understand. The Crit-a-cola is not overpowered in any way, there is a huge risk to using it so it's hardly like a press button to win tool.

an ubercharge eliminates the risk.

yck · 05-18-2010, 07:11 AM

I'll just state my opinion, without pointless discussion.

Sandman - worth a ban (that stun is what bothers me. Solly being ganked gets also stunned, can't rj away; med gets stunned, can't charge, dies; out of discussion for me).

Huntsman - hell no. Hitboxes are borked so badly that you can just shoot it randomly and score headshots out of nowhere.

Crit-a-Cola - worth a try. Again, it's situational, but if you can one shot a med and run away safely, then something is wrong.

Paintrain - anything wrong with it? I understand that a soldier can cap points as fast as scout with it, but you most often don't cap unless point's clear anyway and scouts can ruin everything easier.

Homewrecker - lolwut.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Grimm · 05-18-2010, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

The class limits are not going anywhere and is simply an invalid argument on more levels then I care to spell out right now.

In preseason at XPL you will have the option of having two CaC scouts so we can see how it affects the overall game. If it is truly overpowered, you should be able to take on much stronger teams successfully with those equipped right?

I can already tell XPL will be a sucess, since there's someone who understands logic and reason and big words running it.

Unlike ESEA...

defiance · 05-18-2010, 03:44 PM

Bikini you are seriously like....dumb. Counter ubers, have you heard of them? If somebody ubers and your team doesn't have uber, your people are going to die. Scouts aren't over powered. Honestly, you have nothing to back up what you say.

NeoRussia · 05-18-2010, 04:50 PM

I've tried the crit-a-cola and I can only see a use in it for flanking and for the lack of fall-off damage. Most of the time I use it to give my scatter more range so I can shoot from farther away with less risk, therefore it is practically a perfect pistol replacement. It is hard to use to flank since that 1 seconds you used drinking it could have given you more time and damage anyway when your enemy is out of position and you flank, also not very safe for you because one projectile and you are dead.

brainpower4 · 05-18-2010, 06:39 PM

Neo, how far would you say you can shoot from and still out damage the pistol with the mini crit scatter gun?

Cash50 · 05-18-2010, 07:03 PM

Crit-A-Cola might be nice, dont really care about the other 2..

RoboticRefrigeration · 05-18-2010, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brainpower4

Neo, how far would you say you can shoot from and still out damage the pistol with the mini crit scatter gun?

I've done up to 20 from a range the pistol would have done 10 at. of course, it depends on how many pellets hit.

defiance · 05-18-2010, 10:39 PM

omg you do more damage at range now, but you also take more damage at range, this is extremely unbalanced ban it, totally game changing, we must play tf2 one way, anything that changes that one way of playing must be banned

kyzzak · 05-18-2010, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by defiancd

omg you do more damage at range now, but you also take more damage at range, this is extremely unbalanced ban it, totally game changing, we must play tf2 one way, anything that changes that one way of playing must be banned

i lold

10lolz

chipbuster · 05-18-2010, 11:48 PM

I'm still kinda wary about the sandman, that stun speed reduction is really, really annoying. I probably wouldn't mind if there wasn't such a large speed reduction.

Just to give an idea of how bad it can get, I was pubbing on turbine and got hit by a long range ball by one of the healthpacks in the middle(not quite a stun). I actually turned around and ran while my pocket tried to hold them off, but a scout pair chased me from across the map and made me drop uber right after I got through the door.

Now, that's probably the worst representation of comp TF2 ever, but it does show exactly how badly one long range ball can screw you over. I'm not sure if the loss of 15 HP is enough to compensate for that.

RoboticRefrigeration · 05-18-2010, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by defiancd

omg you do more damage at range now, but you also take more damage at range, this is extremely unbalanced ban it, totally game changing, we must play tf2 one way, anything that changes that one way of playing must be banned

Uh, I dont know if this was directed at me, but I never said it was overpowered anywhere.

In fact, I agree with what you're trying to say, I think its a balanced weapon too.

defiance · 05-19-2010, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboticRefrigeration

Uh, I dont know if this was directed at me, but I never said it was overpowered anywhere.

In fact, I agree with what you're trying to say, I think its a balanced weapon too.

Don't worry, it wasn't directed at you.

NeoRussia · 05-19-2010, 02:21 AM

maybe balance the sandman by not allowing medics on the team who is using it and giving the scout infinite baseballs?

Seriously think about the poor scouts who can get oneshotted. "Sandman is annoying" pffft.

hablah · 05-19-2010, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by defiancd

I don't think we will see ubered scouts, because scouts are extremely easy to keep juggled in a choke.

we have been trying this a a few times in scrims because ive taken a liking to cola over bonk (who uses pistol anyways?) and you get juggled so much its hardly worth doing if a soldier is anywhere in your path. Its more viable in open areas (worst juggling in my experience on yukon 3->4 near banana on defenders side i didnt even get to kill anyone till after uber wore off) but still not good enough to replace normal pushes except to surprise your enemy maybe once a game.

in my experience

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikini

1.Scouts are already overpowered why give them more?

2.an ubercharge eliminates the risk.

1.There you have it, the real reason he doesnt want the cola
2. thats the whole point of an ubercharge, get over it already. As defiance said, what are you doing so close without an uber anyways?

my prediction: it gets limited use but isnt a problem. and dont let xpl follow cevo and esea, they are their own league and can make big boy decisions

P.S.- yes i know my grammar was terrible, its a forum :)

2thumbs · 05-19-2010, 10:59 AM

Seemingly:
The Homewrecker doesn't need to be banned because pyro's are rare and a pyro melee on an SG is not the most efficient way to take out a turret. Can we agree to leave this one alone?

The Paintrain: A demo jumping spire to cap at a scout's speed while scouts are still able to flank in house, is game changing. Weak sauce.

The CaC: Some of us don't see an issue and some of us do. The ruling is NOT going to satisfy everyone. THE RULING IS NOT GOING TO SATISFY EVERYONE!. Don't get sniffly if your team loses this battle.

How I see it, if you can't earn the weapon through achievements, it shouldn't be allowed. That's a clear and concise way of keeping this simple. The potential of one team not having an unlock makes the game unfair. And regardless of what some of you have said, since it's a RANDOM drop system, there is no guaranteeing a player will have every unlock. And heaven forbid someone new to the game want to play comp and hasn't logged enough hours to run the gun boats.

On the other hand, if you want to play with an unlock of your main and it can be earned, hop in a pub server and stomp about till you can earn it. Hell, hop in a farming server.

I'm glad Charles is taking the time to survey the masses, but this conversation is an example why the few have to lead those masses.

ps - 'i lold' comments with a '10lolz' length qualifier should be left to less civilized boards.

~~xenema~~ · 05-19-2010, 12:31 PM

and while we're at it crit-a-cola sucks

chipbuster · 05-20-2010, 02:18 AM

well, honestly, even though I don't like the sandman, looking at the community response, I don't think any of the weapons really warrant a ban anymore...

"When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it." -Sirlin.net

So if I ran a Div2 team against coL with sandman and crit-a-cola scouts, and they win most of the time, I think we can call a CaC or sandman ban warranted. If not, its probably not worth banning.

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